You know, if we make it a program that won't work, it doesn't work the way it's designed to work. If we're moving in programmatic ways. sometimes I have pastors come to me and that's, that's what they asked for. They say, Hey, I want help with disciple-making, but I don't want a program. Right. Because they've tried so many disciple-making programs that just don't get the results that they're hoping for.

Everyone welcome back to the practitioners podcast, where we're applying Jesus' style disciple-making to every day life. The episode is powered by navigatorschurchministries, which focuses on helping churches, make disciples who can make disciples for more information, check out www.navigatorschurchministries.com

How are we today? Hey, we're doing good. It's cold outside, but we're not out there. So, and the sun is shining, which is always nice. Amen to that, especially in the winter in Dayton, Ohio, you know, one of the things I've been thinking a lot about is, what we talk about the, the disciple makers scale when it comes to intentionality.

And, relationships, right. We talk about intentionally and racial and relationally. And I was wondering, you know, because sometimes we can look at all of this stuff and it can feel a lot like a program, but it's not really designed to be a program. Right, right. Yeah, absolutely not. In fact, you know, if we make it a program that won't work and it doesn't work the way it's designed to work, if we're moving in programmatic ways, sometimes I have pastors come to me.

That's what they asked for. They say, Hey, I want help with disciple-making, but I don't want a program. Right? Because they've tried so many disciple-making programs that just don't get the results that they're hoping for. Tony, in fact, it wasn't long ago, I was talking with a pastor who had just preached an incredible sermon on disciple-making had cast vision, given an invitation to the church with some specific next steps.

And I actually saw, and he did a great job. and then a couple, few days, and the week after somewhere, he heard from, from one of his people that, somebody was really upset by that. And, probably for the reasons that we're not expecting, but they were upset because they felt like it was, it was a programmatic approach to disciple making.

And so, yeah, so I went back and I looked at it again. I was trying to figure out, okay, well, what's going on here? And I think it comes back to a quote that was given by a sociologist, probably 30 or 40 years ago named Marshall McLan. And he said the medi is the message. And so in that church service the pastor again, shared a great sermon around disciple-making.

But then he, he talked about it in terms of some next steps for people to grow. Okay. So once you're in the church and you're connected and you're in a life group or a small group, you know, you might think about being discipled and if you're ready for that, Let us know, you know, top tell somebody that sort of idea.

And so I think for some people in that context, it felt programmatic because the medi, everything around it was programmatic. And we face the same struggle when we're in a discipling relationship, whether it's with one person or a nber of people. And the problem comes if we are not living in life to life ways with.

So, I don't know. What's, what's your take on all that? I just said a mouthful, but I mean, I think that, even, even in our podcasts, right, if you've been a long time listener, first of all, thank you. If you're not a long time listener hit that subscribe button. So that way you can be, but even, even as we talk about disciple-making, it can feel like there's a bunch of steps to it, right?

It's step one, step two, step three. But it's not really, it's not really that clear. It's much more. Like you said, right. Life on life. One of the expressions that we both love to use is more, is caught than taught. And so, here's a great example I was deployed. And, the people that you are deployed with become your immediate family, right?

Like we're doing life together. We're trying to figure out how to survive our current environment, where we're doing all those things. And that was never more true. Then when I got really sick on deployment, right. And so I get, I get really sick on deployment and my wife's not there to take care of me. My mom, isn't there to take care of me.

I just want my mom. Well, my mom right. Is there to take care of me. And so I'm dependent on my unit, my squad in this case, to, to take care of me. And, and, and what happened was, is that my leader, my boss. Was the one who came over to get me well, right. And brought me the medicine. And like, and, and this, this did two things.

One is it cemented our relationship as family forever. And he showed me he didn't, he didn't use any words. He showed me what it meant to be a servant leader. He, he taught me through his actions and, and that was, spoke louder than any word possible. So, what was it about the things that he did that communicated so clearly to you?

Those things that you took out of that experience? I think, you know, it was going above and beyond, right? It wasn't just like, Hey, I'm dropping off medicine at your door, but Hey, I'm coming in, I'm going to take out your trash. I'm going to help you. I mean, at this point, like I was really sick, right. So I'm going to help you take out your trash.

I'm going to clean up your room a little bit. I'm going to walk you to the bathrooms because I felt like I was. I was dying. I'm going to save everyone the details, but, but it wasn't a good, it wasn't a good scene. Right, right. And so he was there to go above and beyond and, and it was that, it was empathy.

It was almost like he was in, you know, sitting in the mud puddle with me in that moment. And so you had, prior to that, you'd established some relational norms and this experience showed you. It sounds like. That he cared for you even beyond those relational norms. Yeah. Yes. That's, that's a great way to say that he was willing to go above and beyond.

Not because he had to, there was no like, you know, in the army, there is no like regulation that says you have to take care of a sick soldier, but he, he loved me enough to take care of me and not, in not just let me suffer. And, and I wonder in our, in our disciple-making relationships, in the church family, right.

Outside the church, family, your neighbors, who do you love enough? That you'll take care of them when they're really, really sick. And I think that's a really good picture of what life on life looks like. Cause it's, it's intimate, it's vulnerable, it's messy. And it's, it's kind of. All over the place. I mean, yeah.

I love that. I love that picture. That, that you just communicated to us because it does show that, right. That, that there's more to it than just, you know, a work relationship and you're in your situation, but for disciple-making a lot of times what happens. Well, people set up a rhythm of meetings and whether you're meeting and discipling one person, or you're doing two at a time or three at a time, like there's a rhythm to your meetings.

And the rhythm kind of carries the relationship in a lot of ways. And if we never get outside that rhythm, then we never really have a chance to show them, what our life looks like outside of that setting. And most of the time the settings are sitting down somewhere in a building. You know, across from each other or in a small circle or something like that.

, and that is a different picture than what Jesus gave us. Right. So we talk about discipling Jesus style. Well, I go back to mark three 14 when Jesus invites the 12 and to discipling relationship with him, the scripture says about that time. It says he appointed to him. Designating them apostles that they might be with him.

And so in disciple-making circles, we call this the, with him principle because the first call that Jesus gave to those, those disciples was, Hey, I'm calling you to be with me. And then we see that play out through, through the scriptures and the gospels where wherever you see Jesus, you can just asse that the disciples are right there with.

And a lot of times it's explicitly says that, but then the last part of that versus that also that he might send that, send them out to preach. So the relationship came first, the mission was secondary to the relationship. And so in disciple-making I think it's super important that we keep that, that same sort of priority in focus, because like you said, More is caught than is taught.

So how do you do that, Tony? How do you do it in your relationships or when you add something else to throw in there? Well, I, you know, I was thinking, as you were talking about that, the scripture reference, I was thinking about when, the, the gentlemen came up to Jesus and said, Hey, I want to follow you in Jesus.

Come I'll show you where I sleep. He didn't say, Hey, I'm going to show you where I work or, Hey, I'm going to show you where I do miracles. He says, I'm going to show you where I sleep. And there's an intimacy in that, that just, I find so appealing now in today's world. if you said, Hey, let me show you where I sleep.

I think people would get a little weirded out by that. Yeah. but you know, I, sometimes I think it's okay to be a little weirded out, in this particular case. Maybe pull back just a little bit and, and look at it from a more, You know, relational in context today. So I think, you know, for me, I usually meet with guys either every week or every other week.

And, and I think it's important to, to be in regular prayer for them almost immediately. Right. So when I'm discipling someone, I'm praying for them praying for them by name. And I do that because one, I believe in the power of prayer and two, because it changes my heart. Around the person. Hmm. And so I want to develop intimacy with the person and in order to do that, I have to get over myself.

Right? Yeah. Because intimacy is about vulnerability and you, you know, this, right. Like intimacy is about vulnerability. So when I begin to pray for someone on a regular basis, It creates vulnerability because I'm, I'm lifting them up to God, but in the process, God seems like he's changing mine. Mm . I like that.

Yeah. And the other part with intimacy it's often inconvenient. Yeah. Right, right. Especially when we think about our modern life today and all the things that we kind of balance and juggle and for you and I with, with kids at home, You know, trying to balance being a good father and a good husband, and you know, the work that God's called us to, it's difficult to find pockets of time to invite those guys into right.

For some, with him time. And so I think the other part of developing into intimacy in today's world is, you know, those connection points. So even if it's a text here or, you know, a quick phone call, those sorts of things, we just have to do the best we can. But to be honest, I mean, this is one of the areas that I, that I struggle with from a time perspective.

Sure. Because when I was, you know, a young disciple maker, you know, single, working on campuses, I had tons of time to go and hang out with guys. I was discipling. We would take trips together and we would do lots of stuff together. And, and just the, the balance of all the responsibilities I have.

There's no way I can get that level of with him time right now, or at least I haven't found it. Yeah. And, and, and it's really difficult. And I think one of the, one of the things that every disciple maker will have to wrestle with is what's my priority. Or who's my priority because in different seasons, different people might have different needs.

So a guy that I've been meeting with once a week for the last couple of years, we meet really early in the morning, we meet at 6 30, 7 o'clock in the morning we do breakfast. We do it every week. And that is, that is both our intentional time and our, with him time. Right. But we have a weekly rhythm right now.

The, some of my other guys that I'm discipling for. They are more on an every other week rhythm. And so in between there, I got to shoot texts and you know, for me, I'm a sports guy. So sports are an easy place for me to do a connection that has nothing to do other than saying, Hey, I'm thinking about you.

And I think that you'd like this. Cause I like this. And I know that, you know what I mean? Like I'm building the bond share. Right. And so, you know, we'll, we'll text back and forth about basketball or football or, Really want to try to do a dive into someone's life a little bit. So if I know that their kids are doing something, I may check in on that, those kinds of like, Hey, this is more than just me wanting to make a disciple so that I can check the box.

When I get to heaven, I really care about you. And I care about your family and I care about your needs. moving is a great way to show that, right. You show up to help somebody move and you've demonstrated now that you really can't there. That's right. Nobody wants to be helping with that on the other thing too, though, is that if we are going to help somebody develop character, which we talked about in a previous episode, right.

Character development is a part of disciple-making. If we don't see them in different environment, Then it's really hard to see where their character needs are. Right. And so I used to say, well, I want to see a guy playing sports and I want to see a guy working and I can tell a lot about character from those things.

And I would add in, you know, if they're a parent seeing them with their family right around their kids, around their wife, the way they're interacting, you know, there's just a lot there, that you can really gain an understanding of who this person is that you're trying to help grow into maturity.

, and so that with him, time is super important, but Tony, you said something earlier, you said that more is caught than taught. How, how do you know that? That's true. W why do you believe that? I, you know, I think more than anything, my kids are constant reminder to me about more is caught than taught. And, and there are a couple of things that happen that make me think about this one is, I at various seasons in my life, and I don't know if your operate the same way, I'll have different sayings that I'm saying.

Right. And so, one for me right now is I've been saying, holy smokes a lot, like holy smokes, you know, and, and I don't even know where it came from or where I heard it from. And then all of a sudden I'm driving my son to basketball practice and he's in the backseat with the carpool people and he looks over and he goes, holy smokes.

And I was like, yeah. Oh my gosh, my son, no dude. He caught it. He caught it. He got it. what else do I need to say or not say as a result, you know, right. You know, it's, it's interesting. it's interesting. My, my middle son, for example, he came home the other day from school and they had indoor recess.

And I said, son, how was indoor recess today? And he goes, it was really good dad. I was like, well, what'd you do? And he was like, well, I listened to your podcast. And I was like, which podcasts did you listen to? And then he told me the episode and I was like, holy smokes. And I was like, well, what'd you do that?

And he was like, Yeah, I, you know, you talk about it a lot. I thought I should listen to it. And I was like, oh man, I gotta be really careful about what I I talk about. But it's, it's an important reminder with kids or a little mirrors. And, and I think if we remember the idea that we're raising spiritual children, it's the same principle.

Right? How have you seen it play out? That reminds me of a time when. You know, I was discipling a guy. I was 23, 24 years old and discipling them for two years. we went lots of trips together. I went down to his grandparents farm and we went boar hunting together. And, and yet we're meeting every week in a, in a formal way.

And I was teaching him lots of really important concepts and principles around disciple-making and then it was time. I was about a month out from moving and I was going to be moving from Texas to Ohio. So it was a transition point in our, our friendship. And I asked him, I said, Hey, you know, let's just reflect on the time and what God has done between us.

, what's, what's one thing you're going to really take away or maybe the biggest thing that you've gotten out of our time together. Now I'm on the edge of my seat. I'm sure you're thinking like super profound, like you're going to be the most affirming thing ever in your ministry. Yes. Because I had in my mind giving him so much value and I'm just waiting and he's thinking, and he said, Well, I think it was that time when, when you admitted you are wrong, I was like, what?

And he's like, yeah, you remember we got into this argent and you know, it was over the scripture passage. You know, we talked about it for 10 or 15 minutes and at the end of it, you just stopped. And you're like, yeah, I think you're right. And I internally I'm like what it's that? But what he was showing me was that that was a time where he really saw my heart and saw the hility that I had.

And that was a struggle for him. that area. And, and so I realized that I wasn't even trying to teach him at that point. And so it's like the same thing with your kids. They're catching things that you're not even trying to give them. And so again, more is caught than taught. And what happens when we don't do life on life is they can't catch what's right.

Observed. Yeah. Right. And so they're only catching, what's taught in those more formal meetings. Well, and, and also to, you know, kind of go along with that, think about this is that if, if disciple-making is solely around the intentional meetings, then we miss out on a lot of the fruit that comes from the intentionality.

Let me say that another way is like the, the life on life part is the, is the reward. Yeah, for the sacrifice of pouring into each other and, and the, the commitment to the character that, you know, it's, I love watching someone who, who God has brought into my life, change their marriage. I love watching them change their relationship with their kids.

I love watching them see the scripture in a whole new light and develop a deep personal relation. With Jesus in a new way. And if you're not doing life on life, you're going to miss the best part. Right? Yeah. Boy, I love that. Right. We also miss the generational aspect. So if you're talking about those concepts of families and parenting, the way that they parent, when you impact that, you've not only impacted their kids, you've impacted the way their kids are going to parent.

Right. And so that sort of generational thing, we can get a glimpse of when we have these sorts of relationships that go deep and that function in the margins of our life and the ordinary spaces and not just in the more organized and formal spaces of, of a disciple-making meeting. So man, Tony, I love this.

This is fun to talk about. Super important. More is caught than right. the life on life aspect of disciple-making relationships. Can you share with us kind of take us out with our takeaway and action step for this week? Okay. Yeah, the takeaway, it kind of goes right along with Moore's Cawthon taught and it's effective.

Disciple-making must be life on life. Effective disciple-making must be life on life and the action steps. Hey invite the person that or persons that you're discipling to do something socially with you, right? We're basically, we want you to do something fun, go out and do a little with him, kind of activity, get connected, do something like that.

and Hey, we would love to hear how it goes. Shoot us a note. you can follow us on Instagram, check us out on Facebook, wherever social media wise. And, and we'd love to hear some of your thoughts on, on how disciple-making is going. We are so appreciative to be on this journey with you. And we can't wait to see what God does.

Hey, please do us a favor. Subscribe, leave us a rating or review on iTunes. And, we just pass Justin. I haven't even told you this yet. We just passed over thousand downloads. All right. So we're moving right along and that's all all because of you, the listener. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And we look forward to bringing you a new episode next week.