Good. Can we redo that? What did I do wrong? Nothing wrong. I just wasn't very peppy at the front. You normally Pepe. Oh Lord. Jesus. Help me. You sounded tired. No, I wasn't. That was good. I was trying not to be over the top. Hey everybody. Welcome to the practitioners podcast.

Everybody come back to the practitioner's podcast. We're applying Jesus' style disciple-making to everyday life. This episode is powered by navigators church ministries, which focuses on helping churches, make disciples who can make disciples for more information, check out www.navigatorschurchministries.org.

Justin, how are you? My friend. Doing really well, great intro today, Tony. Cause you made me record it again. I'm so frustrated. I'm not really frustrated, but I thought it was listen, if you, none of you guys were here for the beginning of this podcast, but I recorded the intro and Justin said, Hey, can we record it again?

I thought maybe I said something wrong. I've been known to leave an S off of navigators, church ministries.org every now and then. And I thought maybe I messed it up. And Justin said, what'd you. I said, can we redo it? Because it needs to be a little peppier when, when you're peppy self that we normally get, you know what, man, I am, , I'm glad we're doing this together.

This is good for me. That's good. And, and it's, it's been really helpful too, because one of the things that I've realized is the pandemic, , has really rocked my world a little bit in terms of ministry and what that looks like, you know, Yeah. Tell me more about that. What do you mean? Well, I mean, like, so I mean, you, you and I have shared this before, if you're a faithful listener, first of all, thank you.

Second of all, I'm a screaming extrovert. So the relational side of who I am, needs to come out on a regular basis. And, , in the middle of the pandemic, I realized that I was really struggling because it felt like I lost so much of my community. I lost well, really. I mean, really, I lost so much of my team, right.

That's because you were distanced, right? You guys have each other, the normal rhythm rhythms were disrupted. Yeah, absolutely. And, and the zoom while it's, it's helpful, right? Zoom fatigue is real. And it's really hard for me as somebody who is who's so relational and loves the team aspect to, to, to really try to pour into that team in the midst of all the socially distance stuff and all the feelings.

And, , and so, you know, it really. I mean, honestly, it took an impact on, on my culture building on my disciple-making on my church ministry. And, , and it was just really hard to do an impact culture the way that we strive for. , because I, I, I really felt absent from my team. Yeah. Man, Tony, I'm glad you're sharing that because that is such a common theme that I've been hearing, you know, as I meet with lots of different pastors, lots of different churches, , that's kind of a common theme that I've been seeing really in the past almost year now where pastors just feel.

Exhausted tired because of all that they're dealing with, plus the disconnection from the relationships of the people that they care about and are caring for. Right. And so that's been kind of a theme, I guess. Right. And it's really hard too, because. You know, so much of what all the pastors I know are trying to do.

And probably what a lot of our listeners are trying to do is we're not just trying to create moments, but instead we're really trying to build movements right. And, and change culture. And I know that it's not just about changing culture in the church, but I also, you know, I have a heart for Centerville and I really want to change culture in Centerville.

Right. And where I live and in my neighborhood. And it's just, it's so hard to do that without a team. Yeah. And to create that movement, when all the moment, what, wherever, whatever direction it was going. , I know at restoration is going in lots of great directions, but, you know, the pandemic has disrupted.

And for the most part destroyed moment in every church, whichever way that moment was going and the pandemic kind of sucked it away. Yeah, it made me think though, because I was reminded recently, , that you had a brand new resource come out about building a foundation. Right. And it's about the, , the foundation of a disciple-making culture and, and in so many ways, , it feels like I'm starting over again, which is it's hard to believe, or even even hard to say, but it feels that way.

It's probably not, I'm starting in a much different place than I was seven years ago, but you know what. Made you want to write this resource about the foundation of a disciple-making culture and why does it feel so applicable right now? Yes. Yeah, so I wrote it initially because I wanted to help pastors and church leaders establish a foundation for disciple-making.

That would be solid enough to build a culture upon. And what I, what I saw in church after church, after church was, you know, they had some efforts towards disciple-making, , that generated some moment and it looked good for two, three, maybe even up to five years, but then it would all begin to fall in on itself because they didn't have a foundation that was strong enough to overcome.

, the difficulties that come in a culture building process. And so I agree. I mean, I obviously didn't foresee any pandemic, but, , the pandemic, as much as anything provides the sort of challenge that really exposes a church's foundation when it comes to disciple-making. Right. So if they're deciding, if they're disciple-making foundation was.

, pretty shallow or maybe even without a foundation, it was based on programmatic thinking and programmatic approaches. Then when the pandemic comes, we got nothing left. Right. Everything's gone away because we can't run our programs anymore. Yeah. And even Sunday morning to an extent can become a program.

Right. Like it's, it can be. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's not to say that and to be clear, we're not saying that programs are necessarily like the worst thing in the world, but you can't build. You know, generational disciple-making on a program, right, right. Programs, , become problematic when they become programmatic.

, and so it's nothing wrong with a program per se, but disciple-making has to move relationally. And so when we try to program it or put it into an environment that's high in control or high in, in program thinking systematic thinking, then it doesn't tend to do that. And like I said, it'll, you'll see some, you'll see some results.

I mean, people will engage the program for awhile, but once everyone is moved through the program, then everyone starts looking around for what the next one is. Right. And we've seen that in church, after church. So, so let's asse that if somebody is listening to our podcasts, that they want to be a Jesus style disciple maker, or so they either are one or they're actively becoming one, what's the best way to get to a place where we're creating a culture of disciple-making versus just, , a person who's a disciple man.

Yeah. Yeah. So really what we're talking about, we're talking specifically to pastors and church leaders in this episode. Right? So if they are that, if they're a disciple maker actively becoming a disciple maker, well, now we can start to think about, okay, well, how do I develop a foundation of disciple-making?

How do I move us towards a culture of disciple-making and really the best way to do that is to build a team of disciple-making. All right. So we talk about almost every episode, right? We, we draw our attention back to what did Jesus do? Jesus found disciple-making the way that he impacted culture. Was he invested in a team of 12 and invested deeply in them and help them not only become disciple makers, but become a team.

I love that. And I, I think one of the things that we see with Jesus and his team is that it was, so it was life on life, which makes sense, because we talk about life on life a lot, but those guys were kind of thick. You know what I mean? They were, they were thick as thieves and, and I even love when Jesus says, come follow me and I'll show you where I sleep.

Right. Not just how you know where we're doing life at, but just, you know, the, the depth of the team seems so. Right. Jesus, right? Yes. Yeah. If you think about the, the sheer quantity of hours that Jesus spent with his men, I mean, you know, every week, if you just, it's 168 hours per week, right. I think that's seven times 24.

Man. If you subtract out eight hours a night for sleeping, that's still a ton of time, just on a weekly level. And we have to have time with our people. If we're going to develop depth in them and time together, if we're going to develop a team. Right. And so typically what churches will try to do, even when they talk about.

All right teams. Okay. They'll gather people together, but they, they never really get to a team because they just become a group. Right. And so the groups are essentially just that they're there for what they want, rather than moving towards a common mission together. So that's also a difference of like a it's being on mission together is the difference between a group and a team.

Yeah, there is a common mission, right? In team thinking. But in group thinking there doesn't need to be a common mission, right. We're just there for what we want. If it fits my schedule, I'm there. If it doesn't, I can piece out of that meeting and believe that nobody really cares or needs me. Oh. So this really feels like you're hitting something.

That's, that's a super prevalent in today's church, which is this conseristic culture. Right. So how help me understand the difference between a conseristic culture versus the disciple-making culture? That, that I, I mean, I know that I want for the church, but how do we, how do we make sure, , we're leading towards one and not the.

So, yeah, so for church leaders, we had to be real clear on what we're doing and why we're doing it. Right. So there's a lot of church leaders that begin down a road of disciple-making or discipleship to solve problems in the greater context of the corporate church. Right. So if we don't have a lot of leaders, then, oh, we must need to disciple so that we can get more leaders for the church.

Which is one avenue to go, and it's not the way that Jesus went. , if we want to close the back door of the church, right? So a lot of big churches, they notice that they have no trouble getting people to come in the front door, but they also notice there's a lot of people that have been there a little bit and.

Aren't finding the depth or finding something that they want. And so, you know, they're leaving out the back door, so they aren't, well, let's do discipleship so that we can solve that problem. Right. But if we want to develop a culture of disciple-making, then we have to think what is best for the average church.

Member the average disciple in the pews rather than coming at it from a pastor's perspective of how do I make sure I have enough volunteers and leaders in these different places and approaching disciple-making as a means to solve those problems. We have to think in terms of, well, how do I develop the average everyday believer through my church to become like Jesus, not only in character, but also in practice, right?

What they're doing. And when we come at it from when we start from that motivation, then it impacts every decision we make as we move through the process. And so those are big keys. If we're going to do this and to lay a foundation that, , that does last, then we have to be thinking about the people that we're serving.

And we can't be thinking about it to such a degree that we're giving them their whims. Right? When Jesus recruited guys and people to him, he said, come and die. Right. Luke 9 23. And so we have this idea that if we're selling a and for selling the benefits, we're going to get people looking for the benefits.

That's right. If we're talking about what it looks like to follow Jesus, and it's going to cost everything you have, and if you want to be on a team like this, then it's going to be high commitment. And we're going to ask a lot out of you and we expect you to be there. You know, we don't expect you to call in because you're tired or because your buddy got tickets to a game or anything like that, we expect you to be here because your participation, you know, meeting by meeting not only impacts you, it impacts the rest of us.

Yeah. I remember we talked about in an earlier episode, the importance of setting vision as a disciple maker, this feels like that's one of the first steps and why teams are so important and why vision is so important is, is not only do I need to be a vision carrier, but if I'm going to create a team, then everybody on the team has to be a vision carrier as well.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. , Tony, I want to hear from you a little bit, so I know that you have taken some steps towards developing a team at the church that you lead. , what's been hard for you about that. What would have been some things that have gone well, Yeah. So, , you know, you and I have talked at length on the podcast about being an intentional and relational disciple maker.

And so I naturally lean relational. So I I've created a couple of different teams in the church and my first team was super relational, but lacked intentionality. Okay. That had its ups and downs. Right. We were all super close, but there weren't a lot of very, , tools that we can hand off. And, you know, there was a little bit of intentionality so that, so it was like, man, if I'm gonna use a football analogy here, like I was trying to get them to run plays without ever showing them the playbook.

Right. And so, so that was the first one that we had to overcome some of those challenges. , now there are still people from that team who are making disciples and, and own the vision. And I love that for them. , we lost a couple along the way and, and I think sometimes that happens, right? Not everybody sticks on the team.

Right. The second group has been much more intentional. I've been super intentional with that group and I've lacked relational, , equity. So. So a lot of people on that team, they have a lot of tools, but they're not sure they want to play the game. Right. Like it. And so, so finding this balance on a team of knowing what the play's going to be and getting everyone to run the play, you know, till I beat this football metaphor to death, , it is been that.

Challenging part of team creation and in the midst of the pandemic doing it, , when people don't necessarily want to meet in person and, , , , events, it's just much harder to gather. Right. And so that nothing replaces back to the beginning, right? Nothing replaces the face-to-face interaction, but man, is it, is this been a challenge?

Right. Cause it feels like that's an added layer of complexity to the whole thing, right. This idea of when can we meet, can we not meet? Some people are comfortable. Some people aren't, we have to wear masks. Do we not have to wear a mask? You know, can we, I can't breathe in this thing. I can't talk in this thing.

Right. I won't come unless everyone's wearing one. I mean, we've pretty much experienced it all. Yeah. Yeah. And there's another team I've been helping. , they've been meeting fatefully together, , on zoom, but, but their discussion has moved from, Hey, this is really good. , you know, we're, we're processing and we're being challenged and stuff like that too.

Well, we can't really do anything with it yet. Because of the pandemic. And I encouraged the pastor, I said, well, we got to push back on that because we can do something with it. And we don't want to get to a place where we're just doing, you know, building our knowledge again. Right. Which is all of, a lot of disciple-making is, you know, in programmatic disciple-making gets into this problem too, is it's just, well, I'm just learning.

And because of the fact that I'm learning, I'm growing. But, you know, Jesus asks us to obey and to do things with what we're learning. And so, you know, there's all these, , I guess, extra layers of difficulty that come with the pandemic when it comes down to making disciples, but also to building a team of disciple makers.

Yeah. That being said, I wouldn't want to do it without a team. I mean, w what do you think the biggest benefit of, of team-based culture building is when we think about it from a disciple-making view, Yeah. So when we're trying to shift a culture, , you need a team. You cannot, you're not going to be able to shift a culture and sustain it with only one person.

Now we can have a shift driven by one person, but as soon as that person's taken out, then the culture won't remain. Right. And so what a team does is it, is it provides other stakeholders and anchors within the, in the culture of the church, in this case. That if any one of those people are taken out, then there's still a nber of others that are there saying, no, this is, this is who we are.

This is where we're going. And so those churches that fail to build teams, , really have culture that is vulnerable to the change of, you know, somebody sinning and falling, you know, should we see, , happen sometimes with pastors and church leaders who are not in good relationships and held accountable.

, but also just when somebody moved, right? So Tony you're in the Methodist system right now, this patterns. Yup. And so we have to build a team if we want the foundation to be strong and for it to go beyond just what one person sees or is willing to do. How do you say it? I think one of the things that's become a, , a stark reality is that there are a lot of pastors and church leaders out there who are trying to.

To push this forward completely on their own. And, and, , if the pandemics taught us anything, it's that burnout is real and burnout for, for church leaders are real and decision fatigue is real and all the fatigues are real. And if you don't have somebody. Like, like Justin or a teammate in your life who can say, Hey, rerecord that beginning.

Cause you need to be a little bit peppier, right. Lean into that, lean into that culture. You'll end up being limited by, , by what you can do on your own. Right. And so, , you know, I th I think it's super important if you're listening to this and you feel like you're all by yourself. , do us a favor, please reach out.

And let's talk about how, how you can build a team around you. , Justin, what's the, what's the takeaway for today? A takeaway. If you fail to build a team, then your foundation's only going to be as strong as what you can be. And so the building a team is essential. If you want culture change, that's going to last and your church, if you want disciple-making movement that will last and your church, or that spills outward from your church, you got to build a team.

, and that's, it's hard to do. So, you know, this episode, Tony has been mostly about the why, right? Why should we have a team? What's the point of a team, you know, in a future episode, I think we need to tackle the how right? How do we do it? , but hopefully we've convinced you that you need a team. If you want to build a disciple-making culture.

Tony, how about the action? Step? The action. Do me a favor. Go ahead and download and read the foundation of a disciple-making culture. , we'll, we'll put the link right here in the show notes. It's a free ebook. It's a really, it's a great jping off point on why building a team is so important. And it's going to give you some of the how, and it's a great partner with what then the next episode is going to be on how to build a team.

So download and read the foundation of a disciple-making culture. Thank you guys so much for being here today. Thank you for listening and supporting. Hey, do me a favor. Make sure you hit the subscribe button. Also share this episode with your team, share the episode with the team, get the word out about what God is doing through this platform.

And as always, we are incredibly grateful that you joined us on this journey. Look forward to connecting with you guys real soon.