Hey everybody. Welcome back to the practitioners podcast, where we're applying Jesus' style. Disciple-making in everyday life. As always. This podcast wouldn't be possible if it weren't for our relationship with navigators church ministries, where we want to help churches become excellent in the great commission for more information about navigators, church ministries, or to find out how they can help your church go to navigators, church ministries.org.

All right. Welcome back to the practitioners podcast. Episode three, Tony. Good to be here with you again. Excited man. Episode three. It's like we're. I feel like we're an toddler we're titling around and nailing our head into the coffee table. But we're making it right. And we're figuring it out as we go.

Uh, I'm having a lot of fun so far. Hopefully you guys are listening. Uh, today we're going to be talking about the definition of disciple-making and here's why this is so important because so often churches talk about making disciples or being discipled. And a lot of times they don't talk about it too, but when they do, um, so many don't ever take the time to define what it is they're talking about, especially on around disciple-making, which is kind of a different question than just what is a disciple, which we talked about a little bit in our last episode.

And so, as I was thinking about today, Here's what I'd like to do. Why don't we talk about different definitions of disciple-making that we have heard or used and kind of argue about them a little bit. I love that sounds fun, right? Absolutely. Uh, we'll talk about what we like about them. We'll talk about what we don't like so much about.

Um, but again, this is so important because if we don't know what we're talking about, when we say disciple-making, then it's kind of like going hunting and not knowing what animal it is you're looking for. And so, um, yeah, Tony, why don't I just want to ask you this to get the ball rolling a little bit.

How have you seen a definition of disciple-making play out in your church experience? Well, so honestly it's more like the lack of definition of, uh, of disciple-making. Um, one of the things that as, as many of you know, I'm a Methodist pastor and John Wesley is this incredible disciple maker who love to pour into people.

And so the Methodist church has this incredible definition to make disciples of Jesus Christ for the transformation of the world, which I love. I love it. But in west Ohio alone, there are over a thousand Methodist churches and we all struggled to define what it means to be a disciple. Right. And so without the lack of clarity, it becomes more and more difficult to get to a measurable outcome, right.

To get to, uh, uh, as we talked about last week, Jesus' style of disciple-making. And so the lack of definition becomes a barrier too. Motivating people to live out the disciple-making mission on a, on an everyday basis, I think. And so the, the more that we can define it, I think the more we can March people in the same direction towards what I would say is Jesus has goal, you know, kingdom building here on earth.

Yeah. I like that. So really what I hear is two things that you're saying there, you're talking about how definition of disciple-making can help. But it can also help align a group of people who want to move towards disciple-making together towards a disciple-making culture. I think that's awesome. All right.

So let, let's start out. Let's jump into these definitions. Um, the first one I'm going to throw out there is this disciple-making is friendship with a vision. Let me tell you what I like about this. Tony hit me, hit me. Okay. So disciple-making, as we know has to be relational. And so this definition really gets at that relationship, but it's not just a relationship.

So there's a vision for more. And, you know, sometimes I have seen disciple-making where it ends up being just a friendship mean people are getting together and talking and they're caring about one another. But there's no vision. There's no movement. Yeah. Every small group that I've been in prior to the last couple of years has been friendship without.

Hmm. Right. And so I think that that with a vision standpoint is really good because if I were to, if I were to look back on those small groups, I would say that's friendship with casserole dishes, which sounds tasty to me. I mean, it was a great group and I love those people. I love those people, but none of them are out actively reproducing.

And so I think that's where the vision part comes in really handy. Yup. Now here's my big kickback though, on this definition, this is where I think there's definitely. Is lacking. Um, one of my favorite questions to ask is one I stole from you, which is where do you see friendship with a vision in scripture?

Hm Hmm. And so, I mean, I, I might say, well, Anna niacin, Paul, right? So. Um, after Paul had his vision, uh, and an ice comes along, I was like, all right, I'm going to help you. And this is what this what's next for you, because God has shown me already. So maybe that, yeah, I, I maybe write, like, it's sad, but here's my here's the rub, right?

Is that it doesn't explicitly, um, connect to scripture in kind of a. Matthew 28 way where Jesus says, go there for make disciples of all nations. He doesn't say he doesn't say go there and be friends with everyone. He says, make disciples. And the truth is, I think sometimes making disciples, you know, as, as you and I kind of shared in episode one can sometimes be almost confrontational at times, right?

That for me, friendship is too small of a word. When we talk about building the kingdom of God and it doesn't explicitly tie to the scripture. Yeah. I could see that. And the other thing it doesn't do is it doesn't talk about the role of the scriptures in the friendship or in the disciple-making relationship.

Right. So I could have friendship and vision, but it doesn't tell me whose vision. Right. And it doesn't tell me how I'm going to help that person connect or live out, to live out that vision. Yeah. If I, if I want to be Curt about it, I mean, I've got a lot of friendships with the vision, right? It's I mean, that's the essence of, uh, like when I go to the gym and I work out with a group of guys, we're friends with a vision, the vision is to work out.

Right. You know, there's a lack of clarity here that I think would hamper most church leaders as they try to cast them. Or create a disciple-making culture. Yeah. So I think we agree then that this definition it has some good things to it, but it also it's lacking some things that are important that we, we don't want to leave out.

Yeah. I would say it's mostly weak sauce. Tell us how you really feel. Okay. How about the next one? Okay. So disciple-making is passing your relationship with God onto it. Passing your relationship with God onto another. Here's. What I love about this definition is, is it intentionally creates the idea that you're actually giving a pass audible, right?

You're passing your relationship with who, with God. It's a little bit more explicit than the last definition. And it, it clearly shows that you're doing yeah. Onto another, right. It takes out the ID. You know that we have to be best friends, but instead it's very intentionality focused. And I think that, uh, in disciple-making when I see it work really well, it's got really strong intentionality.

So you know that someone is the disciple. You know, maker and someone is the mint tea. I don't really like that word, but yeah. Yeah. I mean, someone is, uh, is there for the purpose to be discipled, right? Oh, what do you think? Yeah, I am. I like part of it, right. Because what it does for the discipler and helps him to see or her to see.

That their relationship with God is integral to this process that they, they're not able to pass on something, uh, that they don't have. And so the degree to which they are, um, abiding or dwelling with Christ is really important and how they're able to help somebody else. So I really love that part. Uh, what, what kind of bothers me about it is it doesn't, doesn't speak to our, our weaknesses and it also doesn't speak to, uh, kind of the differences that we have in design.

And so I can't expect as a discipler that, um, the person I'm discipling is going to have the exact same relationship with God that I do. Uh, it, uh, they're going to have a different one and based on how their design, if they're really different from them, Their relationship with God is going to look a little different, right.

In the same way that my relationship with each of my four kids is a little different. I'm the same in all of them. Um, but each of them have been created differently and uniquely. And so I think it doesn't, it doesn't bring out that sort of appreciation or that sort of, uh, distinction that I think is important in disciple-making.

And one of the other parts is that it. I actually struggled a little bit with the word, your relationship, the words, your relationship, because it, um, my relationship with God is inherently broken because of the baggage that I bring into the relationship. I don't really want to pass that. I don't want to, I don't want to pass out on anyone.

I'm trying to get rid of it myself, you know, like, uh it's so, so I, I, you know, it's, um, I think most of us feel that way. Right. I would guess. Right. You know, there's something about. You know, whether it's, we feel like we should be more prayerful in life or we should trust him more, or our faith wavers more than we wish it would.

And the idea of passing that on is really scary and something that we want to move away from not towards. And the truth is, is I still feel really strongly that I'm not trying to make disciples of Tony. Right. I'm trying to make disciples of Jesus. Right. And so, um, I understand. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I would say.

So, so again, not a horrible definition, I think probably a little bit better than friendship with a vision, but not, um, not the greatest, I would say in terms of, uh, making sure that it's really clear, which is, you know, why we define anything is to get really clear about it. So, okay. Let's go to the, let's go to the next one.

Okay. Next one. Uh disciple-making is personal spiritual truth. And so I kinda like this one. Um, it's not my favorite, but, but what I like about it is that it, it reminds me of, of going to the gym. Right. So there's, there's a clear destination in mind. Um, and somebody who is in personal training, whether it's physical or spiritual, they're devoting themselves to it.

Uh, there's a specific goal in mind and they're willing to go through hard things, uh, to get there. And so, and, you know, I kind of liked that we already have some of the, the framework in our culture of, well, if I go to the gym and hire a physical trainer, his job is to push me, uh, to help me become better.

Uh he's on my side. Um, and so I, you know, I kind of liked this one. What do you think? Uh, I think it's got some merit, right? I really like the, the, the word training here. I feel like so much of what I see in disciple. Yeah. Is preparation and training for what God calls us to in life. I feel like where this definition lacks the most is that it doesn't really hit the relational or emotional parts of the disciple-making relationship.

Yeah. Yeah. I see that. One of the things that you and I talk about frequently is that disciple-making cuts to the core of who you are as a whole. Right. No matter which side of the relationship you're on, if you're doing it well, if you're doing it the way Jesus did holistically, it's going to be relational and it's going to be emotional.

And so this definition leaves me kind of feeling like, oh, it's just between me and God. Right? It's personal. It's spiritual. Now I'm training that relationship to be better, but it really does take out the fact. Hey, you and I are in this together, right? It's it has to be more than one person, right? It's gotta be two humans working to follow Christ together in a distinct relationship.

Um, I, I think that's my biggest hiccup with the definition. What's your biggest. Yeah. I mean, I agree with that. I think that, that it does leave out the dynamics of, of how that relationship should be between a disciple and somebody who's discipling him or her. Um, you know, like you said, it, it, it should be this in-depth holistic, you know, kind of, as you described with your, um, Chaplain, right.

Jacqueline Causey. In our last episode, you mentioned, you know, you guys had a relationship that was so deep that he could just tell something was bothering you and you didn't even talk about it. Um, you know, I haven't had a physical trainer a long time, but I used to have one and, and we didn't have that type of relationship.

Right. I mean, it's asking me, all right, well, how are your muscles? Right. But nothing about my heart. And so disciple-making needs to be both, right? So we are intentional and moving somewhere together. But at the same time, there's no part of our life that, that shouldn't be included. Right. So if we're going deep and discipling Jesus' style, Then this doesn't get to it.

Right. It gets to an aspect of it. And I think we both appreciate that aspect, but, but there's a lot that it leaves out too. All right. So we've burned through three of these definitions already. Sure. Um, we like some about, um, other things we don't like about them. Um, let's, let's talk about it. All right. So save the best for last, right?

Right. Save the best for dessert in this episode. That's exactly right. Um, and so we each came to this episode. Our best definition. And I'm going to give you the one that we use here at restoration. I've been saying it, uh, pretty frequently for the last five years. Um, and it is, this disciple-making is where we walk alongside someone in our journey of faith.

It is rooted in scripture and must be multiplied. I'll say it again for the people in the back disciple-making is where we walk alongside someone in their journey of faith. It is rooted in scripture. And must be multiplied. So obviously I like this definition because I wrote it. And, uh, honestly, because I felt like it made the process really clear.

So what we're saying is, Hey, is that you need to walk alongside someone in their journey of faith. So wherever they are, wherever you encounter them at on the journey is where you begin. Right? You don't take them back to zero. You start where you are and you take them to a new place. Right. And that's the journey of faith.

It's, it's rooted in scripture. So you can't just make it up. You can't just do whatever you want. We want to be rooted in the word. And then for me, this last part was super important because, um, so often in churches and, and even in my own disciple-making experience, this is the part that I leave off the most.

It must be multiplied. In other words, after you've done this and you've walked alongside someone, that person then must go and do the same thing. But that being said, I know it's not perfect. What areas do you see about this that maybe make you feel a little bit uncomfortable or, you know, isn't quite there, not that we're going to change it cause we're not, but I'm interested to hear your feedback.

Yeah. Well, I really like it as well. I mean, I, I like how, um, there's relationship represented there. Uh, the scriptures are clearly represented. And multiplication or reproduction is, is clearly there. Um, what isn't there as strongly as I would like it would be the intentionality. Yeah. Um, now I can kind of see how we could get there.

Right. So you can't really, um, walk alongside someone, um, effectively if you're not being intentional or rooting them in scripture. But for me, you know, it could be a touch, more intentional. And the other thing it leaves out is how right. So how do we do that? Um, or even, uh, uh, a thought about how, um, when I think about Jesus' style disciple-making Jesus is walking alongside his men.

But neither he, nor they looked at him as a peer. Um, and so, you know, there's, as we've talked about with friendship, with a vision, that one, um, you know, that relationship is important and it can't be like student teacher, you know, master apprentice only. I mean, it's holistic, but, but there is a distinction, right.

And I think that's part of why. You know, when Jesus is working with his man or Paul is working with his guys, both of them are able to say, yeah, just follow me is I'm doing it. Not let's figure it out together. That's a great point. And I also really wish that I would have used Jesus's name in the definition.

Right. Like as I look back on this now five years ago and we're committed to it, but yeah, it's good. It's it's yeah, it's not awful, but like, Hey, it doesn't say Jesus style. Disciple-making right. Which is a term that I've come to love. As I continue to study the life of Jesus. Right. And so, um, uh, all right, let's hear your best.

Yeah. So my best is, as some of you might know, I'm deeply involved with discipleship.org and this is the one that we hold to there. Uh, that disciple-making is a process of helping somebody. Follow Jesus be changed by Jesus and committed to the mission of Jesus. And so I really like it, it obviously anchors and Matthew four 19, uh, which says, um, come follow me.

Jesus said, I'll make you fishers of men. So within that, like Jesus is inviting them to three things to follow him, to be changed by him and to commit to the mission, uh, that he gives us. And so it kind of pairs with that really well, which I like. Um, so yeah, that, that's kinda my current best. What's your take on that one?

Yeah. So the one thing that I would, I would kind of push back on this one is, is, um, I think for a lot of laity and people who aren't on the disciple-making train yet, we would argue about the mission of Jesus. Right? So I think you, and I would both say that the mission of Jesus is to make disciples.

Right. And, but the problem is is that if you look at. Uh, theological takes. If you look at some of that, it could be to reach the lost, right. So then is this really just about evangelism? It doesn't explicitly say some of the, um, intentionality stuff to make disciples who are going to make disciples again, this is a great definition, right?

I mean, we're, we're, we're taking. Find sandpaper to the edges of, of something that's already really good, but I think it's important to note that like, Hey, if, if you wanted to push back on any part of it, that's probably where I would push back. Yeah. Do you, do you see any, any place that you would push back on it?

Um, you know, again, I mean, fine sandpaper, right? I mean, so, um, the relational part could be a little more pronounced. Sure. Um, But yeah, again, I think that one, one thing we're learning, I think, as we talk about all of these, right, we've been through five now. Definitions of disciple-making is that there's really no perfect succinct definition.

That's right of disciple-making right. Um, there are some, and I think all of them are helpful to some degree. And one of the reasons we wanted to do this episode is because I think as we look at disciple-making from different angles and perspectives, um, then we get closer to clarity in our mind. And so, um, You know, all of these definitions are helpful.

All of them are important. None of them are scriptural right. In the sense of, we didn't just pull them verbatim out of scripture. That's right. Um, and so I think we have that freedom there. Um, and the other thing I just wanted to add about yours and what you've done here at restoration is most of the congregation knows that definition, right?

Because there is a season where literally every sermon you found a way to weave it in. And so now, even when you start it, people can, can kind of finish it. And I think that's really important. Well, and if anything that we've learned over the last several years, and as, as you continue to work with churches, and I continue to try to build a disciple-making culture here is that the definition, whatever definition you choose will help create movement.

Right? And it creates a common goal. It creates a common place that we're going to end up together. And, and so. I think one of the things that we want to challenge you on today, your, your action step is to develop clarity on your definition of disciple-making. So, so develop clarity on your definition of disciple-making and then take the time to write it out.

Yeah. As a matter of fact, we would love it. If you shared those definitions with us, either on Instagram or on Twitter, you can tag us. You can email the show@tonyatrestorationcenterville.org, and I'll make sure that, that Justin and I get there. And if, if we get a bunch of them in, we'd love to go over them or give you feedback, if you want, you know, ultimately any time that you're working towards clarity on the goal.

Of disciple-making. It's a good thing. It's not a bad thing. So, um, Justin, any final thoughts on developing clarity? No, that's great. Can you put it well, so do it though. I mean, that's the big thing, right? Yeah. And that, that really is the hardest part. So again, it has been such a joy to be with you today.

You can, uh, connect with us in a, in a multitude of ways. Uh, Justin, what's the best place to find you. Best place to connect with me is www.justingravett.com through the website. I'm also on Facebook, Instagram, et cetera. That's right. And you can always hit me up on Instagram at TW melts or, uh, on my website, TW melt.com or reclamation podcast.com would love to connect with you.

We are so thankful for you and remember the best compliment you can give us, leave a rating review anywhere that you listen to podcasts and share this episode with a friend. Thank you guys so much.

ay life. As always. This podcast wouldn't be possible if it weren't for our relationship with navigators church ministries, where we want to help churches become excellent in the great commission for more information about navigators, church ministries, or to find out how they can help your church go to navigators, church ministries.org.

All right. Welcome back to the practitioners podcast. Episode three, Tony. Good to be here with you again. Excited man. Episode three. It's like we're. I feel like we're an toddler we're titling around and nailing our head into the coffee table. But we're making it right. And we're figuring it out as we go.

Uh, I'm having a lot of fun so far. Hopefully you guys are listening. Uh, today we're going to be talking about the definition of disciple-making and here's why this is so important because so often churches talk about making disciples or being discipled. And a lot of times they don't talk about it too, but when they do, um, so many don't ever take the time to define what it is they're talking about, especially on around disciple-making, which is kind of a different question than just what is a disciple, which we talked about a little bit in our last episode.

And so, as I was thinking about today, Here's what I'd like to do. Why don't we talk about different definitions of disciple-making that we have heard or used and kind of argue about them a little bit. I love that sounds fun, right? Absolutely. Uh, we'll talk about what we like about them. We'll talk about what we don't like so much about.

Um, but again, this is so important because if we don't know what we're talking about, when we say disciple-making, then it's kind of like going hunting and not knowing what animal it is you're looking for. And so, um, yeah, Tony, why don't I just want to ask you this to get the ball rolling a little bit.

How have you seen a definition of disciple-making play out in your church experience? Well, so honestly it's more like the lack of definition of, uh, of disciple-making. Um, one of the things that as, as many of you know, I'm a Methodist pastor and John Wesley is this incredible disciple maker who love to pour into people.

And so the Methodist church has this incredible definition to make disciples of Jesus Christ for the transformation of the world, which I love. I love it. But in west Ohio alone, there are over a thousand Methodist churches and we all struggled to define what it means to be a disciple. Right. And so without the lack of clarity, it becomes more and more difficult to get to a measurable outcome, right.

To get to, uh, uh, as we talked about last week, Jesus' style of disciple-making. And so the lack of definition becomes a barrier too. Motivating people to live out the disciple-making mission on a, on an everyday basis, I think. And so the, the more that we can define it, I think the more we can March people in the same direction towards what I would say is Jesus has goal, you know, kingdom building here on earth.

Yeah. I like that. So really what I hear is two things that you're saying there, you're talking about how definition of disciple-making can help. But it can also help align a group of people who want to move towards disciple-making together towards a disciple-making culture. I think that's awesome. All right.

So let, let's start out. Let's jump into these definitions. Um, the first one I'm going to throw out there is this disciple-making is friendship with a vision. Let me tell you what I like about this. Tony hit me, hit me. Okay. So disciple-making, as we know has to be relational. And so this definition really gets at that relationship, but it's not just a relationship.

So there's a vision for more. And, you know, sometimes I have seen disciple-making where it ends up being just a friendship mean people are getting together and talking and they're caring about one another. But there's no vision. There's no movement. Yeah. Every small group that I've been in prior to the last couple of years has been friendship without.

Hmm. Right. And so I think that that with a vision standpoint is really good because if I were to, if I were to look back on those small groups, I would say that's friendship with casserole dishes, which sounds tasty to me. I mean, it was a great group and I love those people. I love those people, but none of them are out actively reproducing.

And so I think that's where the vision part comes in really handy. Yup. Now here's my big kickback though, on this definition, this is where I think there's definitely. Is lacking. Um, one of my favorite questions to ask is one I stole from you, which is where do you see friendship with a vision in scripture?

Hm Hmm. And so, I mean, I, I might say, well, Anna niacin, Paul, right? So. Um, after Paul had his vision, uh, and an ice comes along, I was like, all right, I'm going to help you. And this is what this what's next for you, because God has shown me already. So maybe that, yeah, I, I maybe write, like, it's sad, but here's my here's the rub, right?

Is that it doesn't explicitly, um, connect to scripture in kind of a. Matthew 28 way where Jesus says, go there for make disciples of all nations. He doesn't say he doesn't say go there and be friends with everyone. He says, make disciples. And the truth is, I think sometimes making disciples, you know, as, as you and I kind of shared in episode one can sometimes be almost confrontational at times, right?

That for me, friendship is too small of a word. When we talk about building the kingdom of God and it doesn't explicitly tie to the scripture. Yeah. I could see that. And the other thing it doesn't do is it doesn't talk about the role of the scriptures in the friendship or in the disciple-making relationship.

Right. So I could have friendship and vision, but it doesn't tell me whose vision. Right. And it doesn't tell me how I'm going to help that person connect or live out, to live out that vision. Yeah. If I, if I want to be Curt about it, I mean, I've got a lot of friendships with the vision, right? It's I mean, that's the essence of, uh, like when I go to the gym and I work out with a group of guys, we're friends with a vision, the vision is to work out.

Right. You know, there's a lack of clarity here that I think would hamper most church leaders as they try to cast them. Or create a disciple-making culture. Yeah. So I think we agree then that this definition it has some good things to it, but it also it's lacking some things that are important that we, we don't want to leave out.

Yeah. I would say it's mostly weak sauce. Tell us how you really feel. Okay. How about the next one? Okay. So disciple-making is passing your relationship with God onto it. Passing your relationship with God onto another. Here's. What I love about this definition is, is it intentionally creates the idea that you're actually giving a pass audible, right?

You're passing your relationship with who, with God. It's a little bit more explicit than the last definition. And it, it clearly shows that you're doing yeah. Onto another, right. It takes out the ID. You know that we have to be best friends, but instead it's very intentionality focused. And I think that, uh, in disciple-making when I see it work really well, it's got really strong intentionality.

So you know that someone is the disciple. You know, maker and someone is the mint tea. I don't really like that word, but yeah. Yeah. I mean, someone is, uh, is there for the purpose to be discipled, right? Oh, what do you think? Yeah, I am. I like part of it, right. Because what it does for the discipler and helps him to see or her to see.

That their relationship with God is integral to this process that they, they're not able to pass on something, uh, that they don't have. And so the degree to which they are, um, abiding or dwelling with Christ is really important and how they're able to help somebody else. So I really love that part. Uh, what, what kind of bothers me about it is it doesn't, doesn't speak to our, our weaknesses and it also doesn't speak to, uh, kind of the differences that we have in design.

And so I can't expect as a discipler that, um, the person I'm discipling is going to have the exact same relationship with God that I do. Uh, it, uh, they're going to have a different one and based on how their design, if they're really different from them, Their relationship with God is going to look a little different, right.

In the same way that my relationship with each of my four kids is a little different. I'm the same in all of them. Um, but each of them have been created differently and uniquely. And so I think it doesn't, it doesn't bring out that sort of appreciation or that sort of, uh, distinction that I think is important in disciple-making.

And one of the other parts is that it. I actually struggled a little bit with the word, your relationship, the words, your relationship, because it, um, my relationship with God is inherently broken because of the baggage that I bring into the relationship. I don't really want to pass that. I don't want to, I don't want to pass out on anyone.

I'm trying to get rid of it myself, you know, like, uh it's so, so I, I, you know, it's, um, I think most of us feel that way. Right. I would guess. Right. You know, there's something about. You know, whether it's, we feel like we should be more prayerful in life or we should trust him more, or our faith wavers more than we wish it would.

And the idea of passing that on is really scary and something that we want to move away from not towards. And the truth is, is I still feel really strongly that I'm not trying to make disciples of Tony. Right. I'm trying to make disciples of Jesus. Right. And so, um, I understand. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I would say.

So, so again, not a horrible definition, I think probably a little bit better than friendship with a vision, but not, um, not the greatest, I would say in terms of, uh, making sure that it's really clear, which is, you know, why we define anything is to get really clear about it. So, okay. Let's go to the, let's go to the next one.

Okay. Next one. Uh disciple-making is personal spiritual truth. And so I kinda like this one. Um, it's not my favorite, but, but what I like about it is that it, it reminds me of, of going to the gym. Right. So there's, there's a clear destination in mind. Um, and somebody who is in personal training, whether it's physical or spiritual, they're devoting themselves to it.

Uh, there's a specific goal in mind and they're willing to go through hard things, uh, to get there. And so, and, you know, I kind of liked that we already have some of the, the framework in our culture of, well, if I go to the gym and hire a physical trainer, his job is to push me, uh, to help me become better.

Uh he's on my side. Um, and so I, you know, I kind of liked this one. What do you think? Uh, I think it's got some merit, right? I really like the, the, the word training here. I feel like so much of what I see in disciple. Yeah. Is preparation and training for what God calls us to in life. I feel like where this definition lacks the most is that it doesn't really hit the relational or emotional parts of the disciple-making relationship.

Yeah. Yeah. I see that. One of the things that you and I talk about frequently is that disciple-making cuts to the core of who you are as a whole. Right. No matter which side of the relationship you're on, if you're doing it well, if you're doing it the way Jesus did holistically, it's going to be relational and it's going to be emotional.

And so this definition leaves me kind of feeling like, oh, it's just between me and God. Right? It's personal. It's spiritual. Now I'm training that relationship to be better, but it really does take out the fact. Hey, you and I are in this together, right? It's it has to be more than one person, right? It's gotta be two humans working to follow Christ together in a distinct relationship.

Um, I, I think that's my biggest hiccup with the definition. What's your biggest. Yeah. I mean, I agree with that. I think that, that it does leave out the dynamics of, of how that relationship should be between a disciple and somebody who's discipling him or her. Um, you know, like you said, it, it, it should be this in-depth holistic, you know, kind of, as you described with your, um, Chaplain, right.

Jacqueline Causey. In our last episode, you mentioned, you know, you guys had a relationship that was so deep that he could just tell something was bothering you and you didn't even talk about it. Um, you know, I haven't had a physical trainer a long time, but I used to have one and, and we didn't have that type of relationship.

Right. I mean, it's asking me, all right, well, how are your muscles? Right. But nothing about my heart. And so disciple-making needs to be both, right? So we are intentional and moving somewhere together. But at the same time, there's no part of our life that, that shouldn't be included. Right. So if we're going deep and discipling Jesus' style, Then this doesn't get to it.

Right. It gets to an aspect of it. And I think we both appreciate that aspect, but, but there's a lot that it leaves out too. All right. So we've burned through three of these definitions already. Sure. Um, we like some about, um, other things we don't like about them. Um, let's, let's talk about it. All right. So save the best for last, right?

Right. Save the best for dessert in this episode. That's exactly right. Um, and so we each came to this episode. Our best definition. And I'm going to give you the one that we use here at restoration. I've been saying it, uh, pretty frequently for the last five years. Um, and it is, this disciple-making is where we walk alongside someone in our journey of faith.

It is rooted in scripture and must be multiplied. I'll say it again for the people in the back disciple-making is where we walk alongside someone in their journey of faith. It is rooted in scripture. And must be multiplied. So obviously I like this definition because I wrote it. And, uh, honestly, because I felt like it made the process really clear.

So what we're saying is, Hey, is that you need to walk alongside someone in their journey of faith. So wherever they are, wherever you encounter them at on the journey is where you begin. Right? You don't take them back to zero. You start where you are and you take them to a new place. Right. And that's the journey of faith.

It's, it's rooted in scripture. So you can't just make it up. You can't just do whatever you want. We want to be rooted in the word. And then for me, this last part was super important because, um, so often in churches and, and even in my own disciple-making experience, this is the part that I leave off the most.

It must be multiplied. In other words, after you've done this and you've walked alongside someone, that person then must go and do the same thing. But that being said, I know it's not perfect. What areas do you see about this that maybe make you feel a little bit uncomfortable or, you know, isn't quite there, not that we're going to change it cause we're not, but I'm interested to hear your feedback.

Yeah. Well, I really like it as well. I mean, I, I like how, um, there's relationship represented there. Uh, the scriptures are clearly represented. And multiplication or reproduction is, is clearly there. Um, what isn't there as strongly as I would like it would be the intentionality. Yeah. Um, now I can kind of see how we could get there.

Right. So you can't really, um, walk alongside someone, um, effectively if you're not being intentional or rooting them in scripture. But for me, you know, it could be a touch, more intentional. And the other thing it leaves out is how right. So how do we do that? Um, or even, uh, uh, a thought about how, um, when I think about Jesus' style disciple-making Jesus is walking alongside his men.

But neither he, nor they looked at him as a peer. Um, and so, you know, there's, as we've talked about with friendship, with a vision, that one, um, you know, that relationship is important and it can't be like student teacher, you know, master apprentice only. I mean, it's holistic, but, but there is a distinction, right.

And I think that's part of why. You know, when Jesus is working with his man or Paul is working with his guys, both of them are able to say, yeah, just follow me is I'm doing it. Not let's figure it out together. That's a great point. And I also really wish that I would have used Jesus's name in the definition.

Right. Like as I look back on this now five years ago and we're committed to it, but yeah, it's good. It's it's yeah, it's not awful, but like, Hey, it doesn't say Jesus style. Disciple-making right. Which is a term that I've come to love. As I continue to study the life of Jesus. Right. And so, um, uh, all right, let's hear your best.

Yeah. So my best is, as some of you might know, I'm deeply involved with discipleship.org and this is the one that we hold to there. Uh, that disciple-making is a process of helping somebody. Follow Jesus be changed by Jesus and committed to the mission of Jesus. And so I really like it, it obviously anchors and Matthew four 19, uh, which says, um, come follow me.

Jesus said, I'll make you fishers of men. So within that, like Jesus is inviting them to three things to follow him, to be changed by him and to commit to the mission, uh, that he gives us. And so it kind of pairs with that really well, which I like. Um, so yeah, that, that's kinda my current best. What's your take on that one?

Yeah. So the one thing that I would, I would kind of push back on this one is, is, um, I think for a lot of laity and people who aren't on the disciple-making train yet, we would argue about the mission of Jesus. Right? So I think you, and I would both say that the mission of Jesus is to make disciples.

Right. And, but the problem is is that if you look at. Uh, theological takes. If you look at some of that, it could be to reach the lost, right. So then is this really just about evangelism? It doesn't explicitly say some of the, um, intentionality stuff to make disciples who are going to make disciples again, this is a great definition, right?

I mean, we're, we're, we're taking. Find sandpaper to the edges of, of something that's already really good, but I think it's important to note that like, Hey, if, if you wanted to push back on any part of it, that's probably where I would push back. Yeah. Do you, do you see any, any place that you would push back on it?

Um, you know, again, I mean, fine sandpaper, right? I mean, so, um, the relational part could be a little more pronounced. Sure. Um, But yeah, again, I think that one, one thing we're learning, I think, as we talk about all of these, right, we've been through five now. Definitions of disciple-making is that there's really no perfect succinct definition.

That's right of disciple-making right. Um, there are some, and I think all of them are helpful to some degree. And one of the reasons we wanted to do this episode is because I think as we look at disciple-making from different angles and perspectives, um, then we get closer to clarity in our mind. And so, um, You know, all of these definitions are helpful.

All of them are important. None of them are scriptural right. In the sense of, we didn't just pull them verbatim out of scripture. That's right. Um, and so I think we have that freedom there. Um, and the other thing I just wanted to add about yours and what you've done here at restoration is most of the congregation knows that definition, right?

Because there is a season where literally every sermon you found a way to weave it in. And so now, even when you start it, people can, can kind of finish it. And I think that's really important. Well, and if anything that we've learned over the last several years, and as, as you continue to work with churches, and I continue to try to build a disciple-making culture here is that the definition, whatever definition you choose will help create movement.

Right? And it creates a common goal. It creates a common place that we're going to end up together. And, and so. I think one of the things that we want to challenge you on today, your, your action step is to develop clarity on your definition of disciple-making. So, so develop clarity on your definition of disciple-making and then take the time to write it out.

Yeah. As a matter of fact, we would love it. If you shared those definitions with us, either on Instagram or on Twitter, you can tag us. You can email the show@tonyatrestorationcenterville.org, and I'll make sure that, that Justin and I get there. And if, if we get a bunch of them in, we'd love to go over them or give you feedback, if you want, you know, ultimately any time that you're working towards clarity on the goal.

Of disciple-making. It's a good thing. It's not a bad thing. So, um, Justin, any final thoughts on developing clarity? No, that's great. Can you put it well, so do it though. I mean, that's the big thing, right? Yeah. And that, that really is the hardest part. So again, it has been such a joy to be with you today.

You can, uh, connect with us in a, in a multitude of ways. Uh, Justin, what's the best place to find you. Best place to connect with me is www.justingravett.com through the website. I'm also on Facebook, Instagram, et cetera. That's right. And you can always hit me up on Instagram at TW melts or, uh, on my website, TW melt.com or reclamation podcast.com would love to connect with you.

We are so thankful for you and remember the best compliment you can give us, leave a rating review anywhere that you listen to podcasts and share this episode with a friend. Thank you guys so much.