Oftentimes, we have churches that have discipleship pastors instead of pastors who make disciples. Yes.

Hey everybody. Welcome back to the practitioners podcast. We're applying Jesus Sal disciple-making in every day. Life. This episode is powered by navigators church ministries, focusing on helping churches, make disciples who make disciples for more information, check out navigators, church ministries.org.

Today we are so excited. We are going to jump in to a very important time. The state of discipleship in the church, Justin, how are you feeling about this? Go ahead. It's a big topic, big topic. And I wanted to start by saying we love the church. Absolutely. Right. Like it's super important to know that, um, we're going to talk about some real.

Tough and important things. And we want you to know that it's not coming from a place of criticism because you and I are in the local church. Yep. We've devoted our lives to the local church. Right. We cared deeply about the local church. In fact, we care deeply enough to talk about hard things because it would be easy and it is easy, right?

The things that we care about to ignore the things that, you know, maybe need some work or need some attention. And, you know, to not focus on those things is really easy to do, but when you love something deeply, you not only want to be excited about the good things, but you want to give attention to the things that need attention as well.

Yeah. And as we're talking about this, you might be thinking, are they talking about politics? Are they talking. Some sort of language. No, we're talking about disciple-making and this is a really interesting idea because when we think about disciple-making and the state of discipleship in the church, what we have begin to learn is that the majority of us didn't grow up in churches that actually taught disciples.

They even, even my pastor friends still struggle with the idea of disciple-making I'm, uh, went to United theological seminary. I loved it. And I had three years of education there. And in those three years there was one class on disciple-making that's more than most places. Right, right. That's why, and that's more than most.

And so, uh, one of the questions that, that led us to is that why is this such a foreign concept? When it's clearly a pillar of Jesus's ministry, like when we look at the life of Christ and one of the things we always strive to do here is look at the life of Christ. His ministry seemed to be fine. I founded on disciple-making as one of the key pillars.

So, you know, I'm kind of curious Justin, and your experience. Um, how does some of the history of the church lead us to where we are? Yeah. Yeah, there was, you know, a lot went on in church history, obviously, but I want to parachute us into, uh, kind of the time of Constantine, which is around 300, 350 a D. Um, and one thing that happened during that time and actually happened in three 13 is that Constantine made a huge shift in what was legal or illegal in the Roman empire.

And what that was was he decided that he was going to make Christianity legal. When for the past 200 years, it had been illegal and Christians have been persecuted. And so in the span of a hundred years, so he made it legal in three 13. In 3 92 Theodosius the first was in power and he took it a step further.

And so he said, not only is it legal, it's going to be the only legal religion in the Roman empire. And so in less than a hundred, it had that shift. But to think about what happened there, we need to dive a little deeper. So what happened was it Christianity, uh, became compulsory. It was required for citizens in the Roman empire.

To worship as Christian. So they had to go to the Christian temple. Uh, to the church as we would call it today. And they, they were forced to attend and they're forced to be baptized. It wasn't a choice if they decided that they weren't going to do that for whatever reason, then they faced, uh, two consequences.

The first was exile out of the Roman empire and the second was they would lose the property that they and their family had accumulated. And so what changed there was really significant because. Christians then instead of doing something out of their own, um, motivation to do it now had to do it out of an extrinsic motivation.

And it really separated too. And this is something we need to get into. It's separated, uh, people into clergy, those who were leading the worship at the church and laity those who were there because they had to be there and surely some of them wanted to be. Um, but it's separated between professionals and amateurs, and that has deeply influenced kind of what we see today.

But Tony won from, from that place in 300, 3 13, 3 92 ID, we kind of took a huge overview of, of just that a hundred years. But can you fast forward us maybe into some of the things that are relevant as well today you're talking about it's really important. And I know that we are going to have an episode coming up about the difference in clergy and lady disciple-making.

So the best way to make sure you don't miss that episode is to go ahead and subscribe wherever, listening to podcasts right now. Um, you don't want to miss any of the episodes that are coming out, but, uh, specifically that one, because it parallels this topic really, really well. And what happened is, is that there were people who started coming to church to get what they want.

And in America, we call this consumerism now and in no way, shape or form, I don't want anyone to hear any shame in this. Cause I am as consumeristic as they come. Right. The, I know the Amazon prime delivery, driver's name. We, I mean, I've got an iPhone, I'm doing all the things, right. I. Being consumeristic, but it's problematic when it comes to the church, because what ends up happening is, is when we think about our giving, right?

When we think about money, um, we pay for things that we want. We pay for things that we think we need, we pay for them on our terms. And when we don't get what we think we deserve out of our money, That we complain about it, right. I at least I do. I'll make I statements here. And, um, I know, I know that many of us fall into this idea.

So, um, consumerism is part of this belief that if you can't deliver what we want, then we'll find someone else who will, and this is a real problem. When we begin to talk about the nature of the gospel, because the gospel is intrinsically counter-cultural like it's, it's designed to go again. All of that consumeristic mentality.

And then, and then what happens is somewhere along the way, we start to meet those needs and churches grow because people like what they want. Right. And there's a large number of us who like what we want and so true churches grow. And then what do people do when something is successful? They steal it, they just rip it right off.

Right. And so now we've got all of these churches who are modeling after one another because of growth. A consumeristic mindset. I even think about Sunday school. Do you ever go to Sunday school, Justin? Absolutely. Yeah, everybody did. Right. And we have this incredible Sunday school class and people go there all the time.

And I know people who have been in Sunday school longer than I've been alive times, too. There's nothing wrong with Sunday school. And yet it lives in the tension of Jesus style. Disciple-making because it's naturally consumeristic someone is teaching and someone is. and Jesus didn't teach people to listen.

He taught people to teach. And so that, that goes back a little bit to that clergy laity divide, right? So it's not just clergy laity, it's professional amateur. Right. And so when people just come to attend or function as consumers in any sort of system, they are coming to get something from those experts that know something, or have something that they don't have.

And oftentimes feel like they can't become that because their expertise is in something else. Modern society expertise normally follows vocation. Right. And so a doctor is not going to walk into a church typically and think, well, yeah, I can know, you know, things that the pastor knows I can be become, um, a follower of Jesus in such a way that the pastor doesn't have a relationship with Christ that is qualitatively different than my own.

Absolutely. Right. And so that plays into all that. Yeah. And, and what I think really kind of encapsulate this whole next part of the movement of, of the church is that the church has done a really good job of teaching people how to go to church and they haven't done a great job of teaching people how to follow Jesus.

And, and it's, it's both difficult to say and important to hear. Because when we begin to teach people to follow Jesus, we'll never have to worry about a full church. Hmm. And that's a hard man. I really liked that statement, but just trying to wrap my head around it. Right? So for most people in their life, they have equated church involvement, church attendance with following Jesus.

But, but what you're saying is that, that we can go to church and yet not meet Jesus or not even be following Jesus. In the church, is that correct? Absolutely. And, and I mean, that was kind of a little bit of my own story growing up. Hmm. Tell, tell us about that. What, what was that like for you? So when I, I grew up in the Catholic church and I think that the Catholic church is beautiful and it's full of liturgy.

And what I'll tell you is, is that it wasn't until there was a youth minister who poured into my life to teach me how to follow Jesus, that I really began that personal, intimate relation. So what did I do in church? Well, I did what a lot of cultural Catholics do. Right? Sit, stand kneel, sit, stand kneel.

Repeat. Right. Take the communion. If it lasts for more than an hour at Cal counts for two weeks, right? Like, I mean, I want, I want a seven minute homily. That's meaningful thought provoking and is still only seven minutes, you know? And that's the nature of the Catholic church. And it wasn't until someone taught me how to follow Jesus.

And I got into his word and I got into a little bit of church history and I began to own the faith versus just viewing the faith. Right. You see the difference. I'm now owning the faith. And then this is what I did. I learned every word in the Catholic liturgy has been poured over. It's been prayed over.

It's been thought about, and based in scripture or church, church history for its entire existence right now, um, I'm no longer practicing Catholic, but what I love about the Catholic church has been enhanced. By my walk of following Jesus. Jesus has taught me about why the Catholic church does the things in the liturgy that they do.

And I'm incredibly thankful for that. And, and there've been a lot of men in my life. Who've poured into me to help me see that with, with good eyes. Hmm. So, I mean, that's a little bit about my story. Yeah. That reminds me, I mean, just hearing yours, there's so many parallels with your story of mine. I was in church every Sunday was part of our family culture.

Um, there was a time when, when I tried to rebel against that and I was probably seven or eight years old and I told my dad, I'm not going to church. Why not? Well, I don't want to go well. Okay. And he said, well, just get dressed and we'll talk about it. And that's a, that's a strong dad move, right. That I didn't understand at the time.

So I'm like getting dressed. All right. We'll, we'll hash this out after I'm dressed. And then he comes back in the room and he says, okay, it's time to. I said, I'm not going. And I literally wrap myself around a corner of the bed, um, so that I wouldn't have to go. That's how committed I was to not going. And my dad peeled me off in a way we went, um, for me, I didn't church for me growing up was not something I enjoyed.

It was something to be endured. And the reality was, um, I didn't enjoy it because I didn't understand what was happening. Much, like you said in your story, it was sit, stand, kneel, all that. But you know, I wasn't in a Catholic church, we weren't doing all that, but it was, you know, lots of music that was just okay for me.

And then somebody gets up and speaks for a long time and I caught some of it in one industry, interested in other parts of it. And, you know, there's a small part I liked probably, but, um, you know, what it did, um, from, from the time I was a small. A small boy until I went off to college. Really? I think it neutered Christianity for me.

And what I mean by that is it reduced Christianity to, uh, this is a set of rules that you have to follow. If you're going to be a Christian person, if you're going to, um, say that that Jesus has somebody that has some relevance to your life, and then there's other things that you don't do. And yeah, you're going to mess up sometimes.

And when you do. You know, you need to pray and God will forgive you. And you know, to me, it was reduced to that. And I'm not suggesting that, that my home church that's what they were preaching, uh, or what they were doing as a whole. But, but at a local level, my own experience, that's what I took out of it.

And it wasn't until much like your story wasn't until somebody began to personally invest in me and helped me to understand. What does it mean to read the Bible? What does it mean to pray? How do we do that at a practical level that I really began to see that Christianity was so much bigger and more powerful than I ever could have imagined to the point we, you know, at that point take carrying on until now, you know, there's nothing, uh, that I can give my life to that has the resonance and depth of meaning that following Jesus does.

And I cannot do that. Connected to a body of believers. That's doing that together because Jesus modeled it right back to that idea. We love the local church, but, um, but too often, local churches is, has all these historical cultural influences that are kind of clouding, uh, the things that Jesus, this has taught us to do.

Yeah. I oftentimes believe and think that that most local churches. Not even with malice in their heart, create idols and it's not idols because they want to worship something else. But it's idols because they've just lost sight of Jesus. And, and I think it's, uh, we see this in scripture a lot too. When, when, anytime the Pharisees talk to Jesus about healing on the Sabbath, right.

They get very legalistic about it. And because it was their church culture. Right. And, and we may not be healing on the Sabbath here. Right. What we might be talking about. What should go on the alter, right? Or what should go in the back of the room or what the music decibel should be at. Right. And we create these altars and Jesus says, Jesus says, wouldn't you wouldn't you save your own ox or sheep on the Sabbath, or wouldn't you feed them to water and doesn't this person deserve that.

And he, what he does is he takes the paradigm. That church culture is the most important thing. And he shifts it to saying, following me is the most important thing having Jesus in your heart is the most important thing. So he's trying to reframe right time and time and time again, keeping the main thing, the main thing.

So Tony, you've been a pastor here at restoration church for what? Six, seven years now. Um, how do you do that as a pastor? How do you continue to. Keep the church from moving down that road where it's, you know, kind of unintentionally moving towards idols and keep reframing the main thing to be the main thing.

I think that there are a couple of things that, that all pastors and really church leaders need to know as we think about this, right, is, um, church involvement. And this is our big action. Step church involvement is not equal to being a disciple, following Jesus, being changed by Jesus and committed to the mission of.

It is what it means to be a disciple. Right? And so in the local church, as a church leader, I'm responsible at least part of re partly responsible for bringing that intentional language into the church. So when I preach, I need to preach that message, right? I need to preach a message that says, Hey, your, the ecstasy of the called out people of God, you're the church, right?

It's not a building. That's this is it. This is what Jesus cares about. You are what Jesus cares about. He does not care about this. So I, you know, that's one thing, right? We, we create culture, um, by doing this sort of thing by intentionally building in language. Uh, the other thing is, is, and this is a, was a struggle for me early on.

One of my biggest regrets is we have to, as church leaders start making disciples immediately. And let me expound upon that. When I first got to restoration, I was so worried about building. Um, big church or breathing new life into a church that was in, uh, a weird season that I was focused on what I, what could I do to get people here?

Which it worked. I got, I got some people here, right. And the church saw some growth right away. And so what did that do? Well, it did exactly what it did and the consumers, that culture that we talked about, it brought people here and then I had no disciples to disciple them. And so as a leader, I, I would challenge you.

And this is a challenge that Justin gave me five or six years ago, Thai they're weak in disciple-making relationships, right. Intentionally make disciples. So, so be in the ministry, like actually do it be intentional about the language. And then the third thing is, is to cast vision of what a culture of disciple-making could look like with a team of people.

Right? And so you can't be the only person that carries this vision. Of church ownership. It has to be a team of people who are more than just involved in the church. They're committed. To following Jesus being changed by Jesus and being committed to the mission of Jesus. And that's got to come out of the senior leader as well, right?

Because oftentimes we have churches that have discipleship pastors instead of pastors who make disciples. Right. And really every pastor, every, not only every pastor, but every follower of Jesus, every disciple should be about making disciples as a primary. Um, part of what they're doing and their faith life and their walk to follow Jesus.

That's why we say, if you're going to be a disciple, you're following Jesus. You're being changed by him, but you're committed to his mission and his mission was to make disciples. And so we can't miss that. And I think part of the reason, the churches in the state that it's in today is because we have missed that and substituted other things for them.

Four generations. I love it. I love it. And I'm so happy that we're having this dialogue today. And I also know that we have a, well, you specifically have a brand new resource coming out about this. Uh, it's an ebook put out by a group that we're both very familiar with. discipleship.org. Give us the name.

Tell us a little about that book. Yes, it's called the foundations of a disciple-making culture and it stems from observation that I have made in working. Numerous churches over the years that, um, oftentimes we can get to a place where we know, okay, I need to start making disciples, but we blast off into doing it in programmatic ways without the proper foundation.

And it generates a lot of momentum, but then three to five years down the road, it all kind of falls in on itself. And then we're back to square one. And so the book really looks at how do I develop a foundation? That's going to be strong. To support a disciple-making culture. Once it begins to unfold in the local church, I love it.

Where can people pick up a copy of the book? Two places you can download it for free. The first is navigators church ministries.org. And the second one is discipleship.org. It's the same book, two different locations. You can go down. Yeah. Uh, whichever place you choose super excited about this. Thank you guys so much for being here today.

We're a member. Uh, the big takeaway for today's episode is that we are called to make creators, uh, uh, uh, we are called to make owners of the faith following Jesus being changed by Jesus and committed to the mission of. Thank you so much for spending time with us today. Hey, please do us a favor. As you're downloading Justin's new ebook, leave a rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts, it does help get the word out about what God is doing through this.

If you found this episode, particularly helpful, do us a favor, share this with somebody who's in church leadership and let's see what we can do to continue to spark the revival about creating disciples, who can wait a second.