Yeah. So at the end of the day, right. Disciple-making is God's plan for reaching the nations. Yeah.

Hey everybody. Welcome to the back to the practitioners podcast, applying Jesus' style disciple-making to every day life. This episode is powered by navigators church ministries, which focus on helping churches, make disciples who make disciples for more information, check out their website, navigators, church, ministries dot, or Justin.

How are we doing this morning? Doing great. Tony, I'm excited about this episode today. We're going to be talking about disciple-making, which is no shock. Cause we kind of talked about that every time. That's what we talk about all the time, but at least we're staying on brand. Yeah. When you, when you come to this podcast, you know, you're going to get disciple-making um, today we're talking about specifically, uh, why disciple-making so why are, why are we so passionate about disciple-making?

Why do we feel so, um, so sure that this is God's plan, this is something that. That we all need to be focused on and doing so Tony is, you know, I work with pastors and churches all over and, and have a lot of different conversations with them around disciple-making. And some of the most interesting ones are the first ones, because I kind of get a sense of what they're focused on and what they feel like is important and what's not important.

And I'm always a little bit, a little bit surprised. Uh, when pastors tell me that other things are more important. Then disciple-making and there was a time, uh, not that long ago when approached the pastor, we had a couple good conversations over lunch, and he was really interested in what I did and seemed to be supportive of it and went back to his team of elders.

They talked about whether they were interested in and having it become more of a focus in their church and learning how to do it more. And the pastor had already said to me that, you know, it was something he knew that he needed to grow in, that the church needed to grow in. And so I was kind of hopeful, right.

I'm thinking, all right, well, we'll probably have an opportunity to help and invest. Things were looking good. They're looking good. And they came back and they said, well, You know, we just don't think it's time right now because we need to focus on membership first. So why don't, why write a little bit down on my end, but, um, you know, what's interesting is it's not that uncommon.

That even pastors come back and say something is more important at the time than disciple-making is. And I'm a hundred percent sure that the first time we met, I told you that I had other things I needed to focus on. Sure. I was about to bring that up, but I'm glad you let the cat out of the bag first.

I'm sure because yeah. Right for you. Um, remind me what it was for you and how that came out. Well, when I first got appointed to restoration, I had a heart for disciple-making of course that's what brought us together. But I told you that I couldn't start making disciples until we had enough new life in the church.

Right. Because the body had gotten, uh, a little. Stagnant in the sense of like a lot of people have been here for a really long time, and there was a lack of a sense of like vision or movement. So I said, Justin, look, I am so excited about the idea of disciple-making, but I need a couple years to get some life breathed into this church body first.

Yes. Yep. I do remember that. And so that's one of the alternatives, right? It's one of the things that people think, oh, we got to do this first. Now Tony today, if I were to. To walk in, if we could kind of rewind the tape and we'd had that conversation with, with Tony Miltenberger six years ago, what'd you tell me the same thing or how would it, how would it change?

So, so I think, uh, aside from maybe giving back some of these gray hairs that the local church has given me, um, I think one of the things that I would tell you is that disciple-making is the most important thing in the church. Right. And I, I would say that, um, it's easy to want to chase baptisms or be salvation focused.

It's easy to. Chase evangelism or Christian charity or social justice, or just teaching your church to be nice or even being attractional right. That's a model of church. It's easy to chase all those things. And some of those things are even important, but they're not as important as creating, uh, the foundation of disciple-making.

Right. And it's in that foundation of disciple-making that we build leaders. To help do everything else. Right. Ultimately, when we talk about disciple-making in, in disciple-making as God's plan, what we're really talking about is multiplication. Yeah. Right. And with the great commission, right? So Jesus, his last words to his disciples and he says go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing, and me, the father and the son and the holy spirit and teaching them to obey everything I've commanded you and yet, so how easy it is for us to, to let that final command.

Just kind of float away from us. And, you know, a lot of our listeners have probably heard of, or read the book, the master plan of evangelism by Robert Coleman and, and Dr. Coleman is still alive today. He's in his nineties. I've had the privilege of talking with him a few times. And one of the things that he likes to ask, um, not only pastors, but every day, uh, disciples is what's your excuse for not following the final command that the Lord Jesus gave us.

And, you know, that gets to the heart of, you know, how important this is. And I think, you know, what we want to spend our time looking at today is why, why is this so important? Why is it so important that Jesus spent his final words to his disciples, telling them to do this? And I want to submit it. It is kind of what you said, Tony.

It's multiplication, but it's tied into the great commission, right? The great commission. Jesus says we're going to reach all nations. And so if we're going to reach all nations, Jesus is laying out for us a plan for how to do it. Yeah. Most of us think though that the plan start in the great commission.

And what I like to tell people is that the plan started way before that at the plan really started in Genesis with Abraham, you know, and, and to kind of refresh our memories. Um, God came to Abraham and asked him to leave his people and his country that's Genesis 12. Um, and to go to a different land and God says, if you do this, I'll make you into a great nation and bless you.

And you'll be a blessing to all nations. And so even right there, way back in Genesis 12, God has a vision for reaching all the nations. Um, he kind of begins to unfold that, and there's a promise that's given to Abraham and he takes him under the stars in the sky. You know, imagine that the clearest night sky, you can, you can remember.

And the thousands upon thousands of stars that you can see, and he takes them out there and he says, look up at the heavens Abraham and count the stars. So shall your offspring be your spiritual offspring that are going to come out of you and your physical offspring, uh, where United really in that time.

And so, you know, this idea, the nations has been on God's heart for, for as long as we can see in scripture. So Tony is I kind of paint that picture for you. What, what does it bring out? What thoughts does it bring to your mind? Well, I mean, here's the thing that strikes me about this plan for God, right? Or the God's plan for us is that it is both a national international plan and a local church plan.

Like when we talk about disciple-making and multiplication, what we're really talking about is, is the pathway to reach them. Amount of people in the world, which that makes sense, right? Because it comes from God. But the beautiful part is, is that what we see is we see this kind of reinforced in scripture, both throughout Jesus's teaching and then throughout all of the Bible, right?

Think about Matthew 24 14, it says, and this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations. And then the end will come, right. Or, or revelation seven, nine, the vision of heaven, where every nation, tribe, people and language before the throne. Right. Even more than that when Jesus preached.

And this is one of the things I love about the way that Jesus did ministry, he preached in these parables and he talked about the mustard seed, right. And the mustard seed, the tree starts so small and then grows to be the biggest of all the trees. And, and honestly, when I think about. The, the church and, and the work that needs to be done, the kingdom building that needs to be done, it starts with a mustard seed.

You know, it, it starts with, with one person discipling, one person who will eventually go and disciple another person. And only God, the father will end up knowing what that looks like, but it's our job as owners of the faith to serve. God's mission and disciple-making is, is the clear way to do that. And, and I love this on a local church level, right?

As a, as a pastor, one of the things I often struggle with is, uh, attendance versus engagement, right. And engagement means that people are owning the mission. And so when we think about this in the local church, We're not getting people to volunteer, right? Cause every pastor knows and you know, this it's any organization you've ever been a part of is that getting someone to volunteer is near impossible, but, but teaching someone to own the mission changes everything.

And, and I don't know about you, but I want nothing more than to be a part of a movement of God. Where everyone in the movement equally owns the mission and makes disciples who can make disciples. Yeah. Amen. And I think for me, that's one of the things that for so long has been so motivating to me, right.

Is that. That God is really inviting me and you and us as disciples into the unfolding of this story that he is creating, right? The story that we're reading from Genesis to revelation, and we know the end of the story, right? The end of the story is around the throne revelation seven, nine, there's this vision of heaven.

Every nation, tribe, people and language is worshiping God together around the throne. And in that verse, you referenced Tony of Matthew 24 14, that the gospel will be preached in the entire world to all the nations. And then the end will come. And so right now, the time that we're in, we're in the midst of the unfolding of this story, where God is building a kingdom and a people for himself, and he knows God, the father knows exactly, um, what that kingdom, the finished kingdom is going to look like.

But the rest of us don't and in fact, it says in scripture that Jesus doesn't even know right when the end will come and he will be sent back. Um, but we're all kind of waiting and we're engaged. If we choose to be engaged in unfolding this story and unfolding the kingdom of God out into the world. Um, and one day, uh, we're all waiting for this day.

One day, God, the father is going to look at his son and say, Hmm, It's time and Jesus is going to come back and you're going to enjoy eternity together forever. And so to me, that's so motivating because what else would I rather spend my time, time on then working together with God to unfold this, this kingdom that is the most important thing to him.

Right? And so I love this idea that it's both international and it's local, but we always live local. Right. If you think about that, I I've lived, um, in Asia as a missionary, I've lived all over the United States in different places. And no matter where I am, the nations are out there. Sure. International is out there, but I'm always local to where I'm.

Right. And so for us, I think we have to figure out, okay, well, in the local church, what does it mean to, like you said, own the mission. Right. How does, how does somebody start to own the mission of disciple-making and to, to have this huge vision in their mind of reaching the nations, but yet they're local, you know, for you and I in Dayton, Ohio somewhere, how do they do that?

Oh, one of the things that I think that, um, that you've always taught me is that owning the, the local part of our ministry starts with getting to know your neighbors. Right? And I think we've relegated our neighbors to tail lights and garage doors for the most part in, in suburban America where I live, you know, but, but ultimately what happens is, is that when we begin to engage our neighbors, we create opportunities to disciple people.

We don't know where God is going to take them. You know, we don't know what that looks like. We don't know what that means. Uh, even in your ministry, right. There's a, we, we have a mutual friend, Laura, Greg, right. And she's got this incredible story about a local, um, a local mission that is eventually taking her internationally and she just packed up her family and moved.

Right. Yeah, right. So she moved across the country so that she could begin to work with a, a group of people, um, that, that she would eventually like to go and serve overseas. Right. So start local start relationally local, start on your street. If you're not sure who to start with, look to the person on your left and right.

And begin to pray and ask God for ways that you can interact with them. Right. And you just start very local. Start with the person across from you. You start with. You know, your cubicle mate, right, right. Local. Right. And that doesn't mean that you're going to go up and like just hit them over the head with a Bible and force him into submission.

It means that you're going to begin to build intentional relationships that are focused on helping them see the power that comes in the gospel and bringing glory to God and, and to get them to own that. and I love that idea. Right. And one of the things that I love about that, what you just articulated is that you didn't say turn to the person next to you in the piece.

Right, right. Because you know what, what a lot of people misunderstand about disciple-making is disciple-making is not mainly about helping other Christians become better. Christians disciple-making is mainly about unfolding the kingdom of God into places where it's not yet present. Right. Whether it's individuals lives, whether it's, you know, um, organizations or systems that we want to bring the kingdom of God into places where darkness is raining.

And when we do that, the kingdom of God spreads. And so disciple-making is, is mostly about reaching those that don't know Jesus and helping them know him initially, but also then helping them grow to a place where they. Own the mission that we're currently on and they go and do the same thing with others.

Right. And so, you know, like you said, start where you are. Start in your workplace, start in your neighborhood, um, start wherever. And you know, I don't want to communicate that it's bad to help somebody in the church. Cause it's not, of course you should. You should. Absolutely. You should absolutely help somebody.

Who's new in their faith, in the church. Right. I mean, we've got to, we can't just baptize them and leave them and go to the next person. Right. We've got to walk alongside. Yes. Amen. And so it's, it's not an either or, and I probably overstate it because. So often in churches, I see it becoming only helping people in the church.

Right. Well, and that's why, I mean, even to, yeah. And even to that point, like how many Christians do we know that don't have any non-Christian friends? That's a whole different episode, but like, um, it's an important part of disciple-making is about being intentional about where you show up to, to plant the mustard seed or to bring the light or to use any of the, the, the metaphors or parables that Jesus uses in scripture to talk about what disciple-making does.

Yes, yes. And Jesus down. Disciple-making what we see him doing is he starts where he is. But also, I mean, I think it's important to note in Jesus's ministry. He had guys that he was discipling, who were soft-hearted towards God and wanted more of, of God in their life. But he was also known as a friend to centers.

Those that he was doing both at same time, we should be doing both at the same time. And if we get off on one of the, other than that, You know, we're off base, we're off course a little bit. Um, let's bring our focus back. Okay. So if we're talking about multiplication and we haven't mentioned this yet, but we need to, um, one of the reasons disciple-making is the plan that God has set out for us.

One of the reasons I think is because multiplication is so powerful. Right. And if you have a financial advisor or anything, they're going to unpack for you, the power of, um, oh, what's the word? The compounding compounding interest. Thank you. Right. And then disciple-making, it's similar. So if you have, and there's tons of ways that you can slice this up, but if you reproduce yourself just once every three years, then at the end of 10 years, there'd be 10 reproducing disciples.

At the end of 20 years, there'd be a hundred of them. At the end of 30, there would be a thousand of them. And if, if God allowed you to, to actively minister for 40 years or 50 years, you know, 40 years, 10,000, 50 years, it's a hundred thousand people that would be reproducing disciples. Just if you do one person that you multiplied yourself and reproduced in every three years.

And so that's kind of the power of multiplication. And one of the reasons I believe that God has, has brought us this plan of unfolding his kingdom. Um, all right, Tony. So let's, let's bring it down a little bit back to local. Can you give us maybe a takeaway that we can have from this episode? And then, then I'll close this out with an action step.

Yeah. So at the end of the day, right? Disciple-making is God's plan for reaching the nations. I'm a, say it again for the people in the back disciple-making is God's plan for reaching the nations, right? Don't don't pass go. Don't collect $200. Start making disciples today. The more you do it, the better you'll get disciple-making is God's plan for reaching the nations.

Awesome. And then an action step to me, it's this it is. We need to see the world. Through the people that we disciple, because we really can reach the nations from right where we are locally, wherever that is. And so one of the challenges for me and for the people that I invest in is I try to say to them, well, the person that you're discipling, can you see the nations in their eyes?

Come are you to preach? Do you have in, in your mind as you're investing in them and helping them with whatever their life issue is, or with whatever thing you're trying to help form in them, uh, to help them become more like Christ, can you see the nations in them that you're investing in them? You care for them, but you care for them because you care for the nation or I should say not because, but also.

You, you care for them and you care for the nations. And when you look at them and you pray for them, you don't just your prayers. Don't end with them, your prayers move through them and into the whole world into the nations. And so the action step for our episode is, is to try to cultivate that in your own life.

Try to cultivate that in those that you invest in those that you're discipling. Well, Tony, it's been a fun conversation today, uh, for everybody out there. Thank you for listening as always. We really appreciate, uh, not only your feedback, but also, um, rating us. ITunes or wherever you get your podcast sharing an episode that you feel like is particularly, um, impactful for you and you think might help somebody else and also to subscribe so that you don't miss an episode.

We love what we're doing, and we hope that you guys do too. We really appreciate you guys listening and we'll talk to you next time. Bye.