19. Practitioner's Podcast: Dan Spader-The Jesus Initiative

Hey everybody. Welcome back to the practitioners podcast where we're applying Jesus style. Disciple-making to everyday. This episode in all of our episodes are powered by navigators church ministries helping churches make disciples who can make disciples for more information check out their website navigators church ministries.org.

Welcome everybody to a special episode of the practitioners podcast. Today we're joined by a friend of mine a person who I've looked up to for a number of years that we are really excited to introduce you guys to. And that is Dr. Dan Spader. And I'm going to read kind of a bio intro for all of you to know kind of who Dan is.

what he has done what God has done in and through him over the years. so here we go. Dr. Dan Spader was born on January 10th 1951 in Mitchell South Dakota. He grew up on a farm as part of a large family where he was one of 16 children. And on December 17th 1970 Dan surrendered his life to Christ as a 19 year old engineering student through the ministry of campus crusade.

From there. Dan moved to Chicago and graduated from moody Bible Institute in 1975 with a degree in evangelism later he would go on to get his master of religious education in 1979 from Trinity seminary and his doctor of ministry in 1984. Also from Trinity Dan's ministry experience includes 12 years as a pastor 10 of those years were as a youth pastor and two years pastoring a church.

And in 1979 Dan founded SunLife ministries a ministry. It was focused on teaching the life of Christ developmentally believing that Jesus modeled how to create a movement of multiplying disciples. SunLife has now worldwide ministry that continues to draw people deep into the life of Christ in order to build disciple makers.

Dan led SunLife for 25 years before handing over leadership in 2005. At that time he became the president of global youth initiative and Alliance of ministries that are committed to creating indigenous movements of disciple-making with younger leaders their focus is to advance the training and values of Jesus's life.

Dan has written over 20 manuals for disciple-making training and produced a number of videos as well. He's written various books including four chair discipling walking as Jesus walked and discipling as Jesus' disciples. Recently he's poured himself into the light Jesus initiative. That initiative is a comprehensive disciple-making training and app designed to help pastors churches and small groups make disciples like Jesus did in order to build a movement that will impact the world.

Currently he and his wife char live in Southern California. they have three daughters and are living near their eight grandchildren and immensely enjoying that. I met Dan in 2016 through a mutual friend and over the past five years or so we've partnered together at the national disciple-making forum and other discipleship.org gatherings.

Personally. So that's the that's the formal stuff but personally I would say that I've really enjoyed my friendship with with you Dan and really appreciate your generosity towards me both in your time. but also just the sharing with me the things that you've learned over your years of following Jesus.

And I'll say this I was talking with Tony yesterday about this episode and and thinking and preparing for this podcast. I think if there was one person I could just do a download of their vision and perspective of Jesus and his life. it would be you but not just for the information but for the way that you live it out and the way that you've taught it.

And so I'm super excited that you're here super excited for our listeners to get to know you a little bit. So that was a mouthful but not nearly as much as it could have been. Well Justin it's just great being with you. And I have that mutual respect for you. I I my wife and I were just talking before this podcast how we both of us felt very sovereignly God put us together.

we were at a Sunday school class and we randomly met each other and we have and I think being at the same table and I asked you what you did and you asked me what I did and and that led to a whole series of meetings and connections. And so. It's just really fun to see how God orchestrates those kinds of relation.

Absolutely. Amen. You know that Dan via Justin you've had an incredible impact on my life too. Last year. I read the gospels every month because Justin shared with me that you wanted to know the life of Jesus kind of like a movie right. You could be dropped in anywhere. You would know what what came before?

What came after it and and no a couple of lines. In the middle of it. That's my paraphrase. But I I'm curious how does somebody become a life of Jesus expert? I mean w where did that start in your life? Well it's a good question. for me very clear to answer. I was a brand new Christian. I've been a Christian A.

Little bit over a year started working part-time as a youth pastor in a tiny little church. Didn't know anything about ministry didn't know anything hardly about the church is a brand new Christ follower. And I was studying the gospel of John at a Bible school moody Bible Institute. And my professor Stan Gundry made a statement in passing that changed my whole.

In passing. He said there's a good chance. Christ initial disciples could have been or probably were teenagers with Jesus began to work with them. Now I was a brand new Christ follower. I didn't know the scriptures hardly at all but I knew enough to know Jesus was about 30 years old when he began his ministry.

And as a 20 year old I thought Jesus was an old guy and his disciples were a bunch of old guys. And when I sent her the prop say that I ran to him after the class. I said prop if that really true. And he said yeah it's true. John probably was 16 17 years of age other disciples late teens early twenties.

And all of a sudden my whole picture of Jesus got turned upside down. I said well what did Jesus do with his youth group them? Because I was working with 16 17 18 years. And a prof kinda chuckled and he'd just compiled the Thomas Gundry harmony of the gospels. He was a coauthor of that and I think he wanted to sell one.

So he said you have to go to the bookstore buy a harmony and just analyze the life of Christ. What did he do first year? Where did he go? What did he say? What did he not say? What did he not do that. Where'd he go second year. Where'd he go? Third year? Where'd he go forth here? What'd he say what he not say?

And my engineering background that just made so much sense to me. I went down to the bookstore bought a Harmon and the gospels and for the next 10 years of my doctoral work every weekend I would go away two three days a month which is my Bible in the harmony and analyze the life of Christ and then try to apply what Jesus did in our youth group.

We caught a youth group sunlight. Because we're just trying to figure out the son's wife. And so I I just became and God uniquely wired me I think for this but I I just became extremely passionate about trying to figure out what I like to call the real Jesus that walked on this earth. Not the not the caricature that we have a Jesus is kind of superhuman.

you know we did miracles because he was God and we could never do what he did. And yet over 40 times Jesus said do what I've done. Walk as I walked follow a pattern I gave you. So I just began to analyze in detail. I mean I've been in Israel over 50 times. Not because I like traveling but because I love studying Jesus in the land where he lived because he becomes so real.

And so I just spent my life trying to analyze what Jesus did real quickly. When you begin to study Jesus in that way and study the harmony that way harmony of the gospels and put the four gospels together chronologically you begin to realize number one Jesus was all about disciple-making. Number two he had a very clear strategy and plan for doing that.

And number three it was. Coleman says his his his plan was nothing less than revolutionary. And and and I began to see that. So we call it a youth group site and we're just going to try to do what Jesus did well. And again to make a long story short God began to really multiply the youth group. Students began to reach students.

People began to come and say how you doing that? I don't know. We're just doing what Jesus did well what's that? And so that led to a ministry called SunLife ministries just teaching the life of Christ chronologically Dan that story. And one of the things I would love for our listeners to hear is a little bit about.

What came out of that initial study? how did you begin teaching the life of Christ to your youth group? And I know SunLife did that and continues to do that for our listeners. What what how would you communicate about how you teach that? How do you teach the priorities in the life of Christ? And that's a great question right?

Whenever you study Jesus I call it the life of Christ. When you really get down to the real. And this four years of ministry I think there are two ways to analyze Jesus. One is you analyze how did Jesus make disciples? So he started with seekers moved them to believers or disciples then moved them to workers and then disciple makers.

So he had a pathway of making disciples that he clearly understood. And more and more churches and ministries understand the disciple-making pathway. How do you make disciples? Who can make disciples ultimately reproduce the different stages of growth and maturity but but probably the biggest thing that we did as an organization and early on is my leadership gifting.

Cause that is my primary gifting. I analyze Jesus initially as a leader what did Jesus do to create a movement? Because I soon discovered 40 times Jesus said do what I've done walking and walk follow a pattern I gave you. And as a leader I asked the really tough questions. What did Jesus do that first year?

What did he do the first 30 years to prepare then? What did he do that first year? What do you do second year? And we broken the life of Christ down into what we call five phases of building a model. And first phase being the preparation period that's the first 30 years of Jesus' life. And then when he launched his ministry he laid a foundation or the fountain the first of preparation then in the second phase is called the foundational phase.

He modeled certain qualities. That's the second phase. We break that down through an acronym called holy spirit power. A Hollinsburg dependent perfectly guided obedience learned word centered exalt the father and everything and relationships of love and integrity. I write about that in my books. that's the second phase third phase is is he developed a team where he goes follow me I'll make you fishers of men.

And then that team of people. Jesus began to equip them to reach your friends. Fourth phase what we call outreach phase. This is where Jesus did 30 plus miracles. I only did two miracles in our first year and a half 30 plus miracles in this this fourth phase. This is what the master began to explode.

And then the last phase we call it the leadership multiplication phase. This is where after a night of prayer Jesus told chose the 12. apostles that they might be with him and spend time with him. Now most people don't get this about Jesus but it wasn't until two and a half years into it. When Jesus chose the 12 and appointed them I believe not as disciples in training but as leaders in development.

And so we call it the leadership multiplication phase. So I know I've said a lot there but we we've analyzed the life of Christ and break it down into five phases. Of how you birth a movement a multiplication. And by the way that same characteristics in all 130 countries around the globe where we now have staff we measure every country based upon the life of Christ.

What phase are they in building a movement? Because if you're a phase two country there's certain things you've got to do. If you're phase three country you know what you got to do based upon what Jesus. And it becomes a very powerful what I love to stay crystal centric Christ centered strategy of creating a movement and multiplication.

So for 25 years Yeah. When 25 years when we train the life of Christ to youth pastors only for the first 15 years we measured every youth ministry based upon what phase they're at based upon the life of Christ. And when you understand the life of Christ then ministry becomes so much clearer in my. Hmm one of the things that you said that I think I I think you've kind of you said so quickly that it was it might've been glossed over that.

I know our listeners are back here going what what just happened? You said the four years of Christ whereas most of us are taught that only three years of Christ. Now I heard you in Nashville. Talk about this but I do think it's important because right now there's someone opening their Bibles. Where's he getting four from and they're not going to listen to anything else until we explain how you got to four versus the common belief of three.

Right? Well and I'd say most most harmony writers would agree that Christ had a three and three quarter year ministry. And so they tend to round it to that. Thomas and Gundry the most classic or 80 Robertson's harmony the gospel they all say Jesus had three and a half to three and three quarter year of ministry.

They tend to round it to three. but it really was closer to four on my doctoral project. I think you could almost argue that Jesus might even had a four and a half five-year ministry but it's just so hard to defend. I decided to have that bike that back. Because of his pre-IND ministry. There's so much that happened during that time.

It's hard to cram that into a harmony. And so most they're about 30 harmonies that have been compiled around the world. They almost all agree that Jesus had three and a half to three and three quarter year ministry. You'll find some have argued for one year some argue for two and a half to three year but they're really not that respected.

So it really have to think in terms of three and a half to three three definitely three and three quarter years whatever. Well let me get a little personal here with in in your life you kind of mapped out these five phases which are very succinctly and well said as you're doing your doctoral research and you begin to learn this about Jesus.

How how does that change you as a Christ father? Wow. It was how much time do we have? I think that the major thing for me and Justin knows this anybody who's been around me along knows that when you really dive into what I call that real Jesus the fully God fully man Jesus you begin to understand real quick.

That Jesus said we can do everything he did. Any of you have faith in me you can do what I've done. No. He said you can even do greater things. Now. Now you have to deal with those scriptures. Most people most Americans my experience I would say 90 95% of Christians in America. Think of Jesus as a super human not fully human.

And so they think Jesus did what he did because most of the time he used his God card to do things. And he pulled up that God card and didn't miracles through by the power of his God card. But that's not even what Jesus said. Jesus said the miracles I did I did not do the father did them in through me in me and through me the miracles which God did through Jesus exhale says so how it changed me more than anything.

Is to come to full rustling and grips with the reality that Jesus was fully human. Now he was also fully God but that humanity Hebrews two says the only way he could be fully human. And fall it got the same time as he had to bail that deity so that its humanity could be expressed. In other words everything Jesus did he did not do by using his God card.

He did through the power of the holy spirit word and prayer. And that's why Jesus said you can do what I do if you walk like I walked. And so how did it impact me? I began to look a lot not only at the message of Jesus or the ministry of. But I looked at the very model of his life. What was the attitude of Jesus were to have the same attitude as Jesus.

How did Jesus think? Not just what did Jesus do? Hmm. And you fall in love with Jesus all over again. I mean I spent 50 years studying the life of Christ. I never never tire of Jesus. I really tire of how to. Higher teaching my style but I never tire of teaching Jesus because just this morning I probably spent three hours wrestling with the love of God the love of Jesus in a whole fresh new way.

He's a deep well and and we're not salvation is not a gift we received as much as a person that receives us. And when we come to Jesus not to a doctrine or a cold or a even a gift we come to the person of Jesus. He is our savior. So how does it impact you when you get to the real Jesus of the new Testament you realize you know what I can do what Jesus did.

If I walked as Jesus walked now I have to put a caveat there. Jesus was sinless. And we're not right. Four times the scripture says he will yet without sin. But having said that if you really understand that he understood temptation even more than we do because he faced every temptation and never came.

We always came. And so he can empathize with us and he can help us. And he did everything through the power of the holy spirit word and prayer everything he was conceived by spirit led by spirit anointed iceberg did miracles by spirit raised by the spirit everything he did through the power of spirit.

And he said now you can do this too. And they did they did almost every miracle. Jesus. Except you know one or two and they they were quick to say we didn't do it. God did it through us. Just like Jesus said I didn't do this. The father did. I'm sorry. You're getting me going there but that's is awesome.

It's such a powerful thing. Yeah. Dan one of the ways that you've most impacted me is from one of our our lunches together. And I forget what the question was but I remember your answer. You said you know well for me making disciples has never been enough. And I remember hearing that and in my mind I'm like what?

Like this is I mean at that point that's that was that's. My whole aim in life is to make disciples for the glory of God and promote new Jesus followers to maturity et cetera et cetera. And I said well what do you mean? And you told me he said well I believe that God has called us to to follow his example.

And that includes not only multiplying our life and others but also multiplying. Those others into a movement. And that totally shifted my motivation expanded it. Right. So instead of a target being near it got a little further out there and one of those first objections that people normally have as we think about that or talk about those things is oh wait a second.

I'm not Jesus. And so I'm really excited that you just unpacked for us right. That Jesus was. Right. And that piece of who Jesus was is super important because if we believe he was superhuman or only God and not human then we can't fully follow that example that he's given us. And so yeah this is super could you guys stop?

Augustine said if Jesus was not fully human than our Coleman is not. Yeah that's the argument. He was too. He had to be fully human to make a Toma for our sin. And so that's the real Jesus I like to talk about. And you know Justin and we've talked about this but what this does to me is yeah I'm committed to making disciples.

Yes. I'm committed to keeping my walk with the Lord and bearing fruit more fruit and much fruit but you know what? Those are all byproducts. Of staying connected to the vine. Those are all byproducts of going deeper and deeper and deeper with Jesus. And that's why I love the our ministry was called SunLife because we're not teaching strategy.

We're not teaching discipline as much as we're teaching the son's life. And I'm convinced the church in America has missed. The early first second generations you know first couple of hundred years they understood the real Jesus because they remembered him. They saw him we've we've made Jesus into this Superman or some caricature.

And therefore we call people to the superhuman you know God figure that nobody seems to identify with. And then they. Quickly lose their love for him. Yeah. I'll be honest as I kind of done more of a deep dive into your life. One of the things that struck me is like oh Dan's entire ministry is just to tell people about Jesus.

And then I thought to myself well why isn't that the ministry for the whole church? And then it kind of led me to this place of like you know one thing that you're doing that I don't hear ma many. disciple makers evangelists or even you know apologists do is you're talking about the methods of Jesus.

So let me ask you this. What happened in the north American church where we read his word but don't actually study his actions. Hmm. Well that's a good question. I always like to say it this way there you you 95% of the books that I read out there on the message of Jesus and we're going to spend eternity studying his message cause it's profound and all scriptures pointed Jesus.

So I can find Jesus in the book a little lady cause it's very easy you know so all scripture points to Jesus but most of the books are on the message. More and more books are getting down to the methods of Jesus and that's making disciples. W incarnational relation relational methods but I'd like to push people beyond just the methods of Jesus.

I can push them to the model of who he was and his humanity. That's what I again that's my picture of the real. Because now you have to deal with his heart. You have to deal with his attitudes. You have to deal with this thought process. You have to deal with why did Jesus do what Jesus did? Why did Jesus not get involved in politics?

Why did Jesus have such compassion on that? That woman who's being stoned? Why did he weep? When he come down Mount of olives you know you you have to ask deeper questions. What was the real Jesus? Again I come back 40 times. This is one of the first things I discovered. Jesus said do what I've done. Walk the walk follow a pattern I gave you.

And and so often if you don't wrestle with what the earthly human Jesus see there are several forms of Jesus. The Bible says are five forms theologically and I won't go into all the theology of this but let me give you three very practically. You have the pre-incarnate Christ who appeared as the angel.

You have the incarnate Christ who became flesh and dwelt among us and then you have the resurrected glorified Christ. Okay. And most of us spend our time thinking about the resurrected glorified Christ. And that's wonderful. We're going to spend eternity with that glorified resurrected Christ who has a body in heaven.

Okay. Now but but we're not told to do what the pre-incarnate Christ did. We're not told to do with the goal resurrected glorified Christ. It we're told to do what the incarnate I call it the eye. Jesus you know know iPhone iPad what Jesus did. And that's the one we the church in America it's not talking about.

Yeah we keep talking about the resurrect Laura record which is wonderful. You worshiped the resurrected glory by Christ but we imitate the incarnate Christ. The more I began to imitate the incarnate Christ and study the incarnate Christ the more my worship or the exalted Christ begin to go through this.

Yeah. So one of the things I've heard you say we want to follow and engage the great commission with a great commandment heart.

Yes.

Okay. We froze right there. We frozen right there. Yeah. All right Justin start over again with the great commission with heart. Sorry. I realized I was lagging after I said it. so Dan one of the things I've heard you say is that we need to engage the great commission out of a great commandment heart.

Can you share with our listeners kind of what that means and how you came from. Yeah well Matthew 22 comes before Matthew 28 and Matthew 28 is a great commission. Go make disciples. But Matthew 22 says love the Lord your God with a whole heart. So mine a love thy neighbor as yourself and Jesus. There's really only one command.

And then it gives to well you can't separate loving people from loving God when you love God you love people. When you love people you love God. So the great commandment is absolutely essential to film the great commission. Otherwise a great commission becomes a task a project a job and and this the degree in which we have the heart of Jesus the attitude of Jesus is a degree which I think we will be fruitful in the fulfilling of the great commission making this.

so you can't separate the heart from the hands. It's just a non-starter for me I work with way too many people that said they're committed to the great commission but they can't stand. And you know or their their their organization shows that you know there it's it's not either war and the reverse is true.

I know a lot of churches say oh we're just about loving God and loving people. But if you're not focused on the great commission you're missing something we're to love. God love people make disciples. Those six words summarize it all but they're that order love God. Then you will love people. Then you'll be committed to making disciples.

And well if we get those inverted somehow or backwards right. It leads to problems. Not only personally but also in our ministries. Right? If we if our primary goal first is the great commission and getting people to do something and yet we're not following God. Then we end up with burnout and all sorts of unhealth and churches.

But that's I I love the way you phrase that because it's it brings those two together in in a way that oftentimes we don't hold together. Right. For some reason we we look at one and then we we look over here to another one at the other one instead of looking at them you know wedded together in the relationship that they have.

you asked a question earlier how did my study of Jesus impact my life? And next is just basically understanding how he grew a movement and was committed to making disciples. The number one thing that impacted me was Jesus. and this love for people. And a matter of fact we've ended up producing hours and hours of training on that.

So one of the first key foundational priorities is creating an environment a love in our ministry. I grew up I say it this way. I grew up in a very large rural Midwestern conservative staunch German rural pig farming family in South Dakota and anybody who knows about anything about that kind of family knows my dad.

We're starting to. My dad never ever told me he loved me. Hmm. it it just because it wasn't done it didn't mean there wasn't love. He just never told me. Yeah. And I remember when I began to study Jesus and see all the scriptures about love and pursue love let you know go from love to love and just go.

And I began to wrestle with that. I realized I was not good at communicating. I love you. I care. And that was one of the first major breakthroughs in my life. Was God had to break me out of retreat that we had organized around the theme of love and it was a disaster. And I had a stand before the kids. At the end of that retreat we had a communion service schedule and with tearful on my face I apologize because God clearly showed me Dan the problem is you you really don't love.

The sheep I've called you to shepherd. You want them to perform you don't really love them. Like I love them and God brought me and that created the first spiritual awakening in our youth group. But God had to break me first because I did not have the great commandment in my heart. Well I I I'm curious about that Dan like so there's probably somebody listening.

Who's. Wrestling right now about whether or not they have the great commandment in their heart. and you know my my temptation is to be like is there a test you can take online? no. how would you tell somebody to test it to test their heart? And then you know if if they don't feel like they have that love w where does somebody where does somebody start.

Well it's I'll tell you where I started. I first began to ask the question do I really love those? God's called me to shepherd and it began to read all the passages on love and and get to the lay of the sea in church where they lacked that love. They lost that first love. then I began to ask the question do those in my ministry know that I love them.

And and. I began to realize I was not good as a leader. At showing love. Hmm. I grew up in that staunch German pig farm family. And if you know my dad said when he got married to my mom I love you. And never told her again for 50 years. And that's the truth. Wow. But it didn't mean there wasn't love that he was not good at showing it.

So I was not good at showing love. So I had to learn that. So God was dealing with me the shepherd before he can minister through me to get to the sheep I had. Like Jesus love. Would I leap over some of the sins of my people? I wasn't. That way I would get mad at him was I expecting the best of them.

First Corinthians 13. You know God used a whole bunch of scripture. It he had to work my heart over in this area and I don't I I'm still dealing with that. I I'll be honest with you since we've been moving the last couple of years I haven't led anybody to Christ for two years and it's killing me. I'm not a great evangelists but God's always brought people into my world.

But we were moving. I haven't. And I just said God why I I just you know I need it. I need to make my own disciple not disciple other people's disciples. And so but it's I so I'm asking this morning I told you I was studying and the love of God. I said God is that lacking in my heart? Is there something I'm missing?

And I'm convinced there is because God always has a way. Of getting to me first in order to work through me to reach somebody. So it's just tough questions. There's no pat answers on that. I w I wish it was an easy answer but it was a painful process for me to to to recognize that knowledge that I didn't have the love of God in my heart the way he loved his sheep.

Dan I appreciate your your openness and vulnerability on that. I think all of us have things in our life that we're struggling with and for real with ourselves and with others we can see those and name those. I'm sitting here thinking about a four chair discipling. One of the books that you've you've written it's really been helpful for me and a lot of others.

And one of the main premise I guess at the book is that that as disciples there's a growth process that we move through. And the book kind of breaks it down into four different chairs or we could say categories. could you share with our listeners kind of what those four are and maybe give some description of those and how how that whole framework came to you and and became so clear that you could communicate to others and it and it comes back again to my engineering background analyzing the life of Christ but you find Jesus basically had four challenges.

Now you could have more but the first challenge he gave was to come and see that was John chapter one. And it basically means a low level challenges show up come and see come and see. He said that to a Johnson cycle. Then the next level was the follow me. This that means what behind it's the Greek word means follow in my steps.

I believe it was given to the those who had already. Came and saw that Jesus was the mine Messiah put their belief in him and now they had to learn to follow him to grow. The third challenge was 18 months in the life of Christ. He goes to five individuals James John Simon Andrew and later on Matthew these are not the 12 yet but they become the 12 and he says follow me.

I'll make you a Fisher man I'm going to teach you how to reproduce for 18 months. These guys have been following Jesus. Now he's going to kick it up and teach them to reproduce help them lead someone to Christ make a disciple can make a disciple. And then the last challenge was now go and bear fruit.

And this is the fourth chair we said. And it's the disciple-making chair. So you have seekers chair one believers chair two workers chair three and disciple makers chair four. And that's a disciple-making pathway in the life of Christ. Not if you treat all new believers as chair three people you're not going to minister to them.

Or if you chair treat chair three people like chair one you're going to be a lousy. you got to know where people are at what their next step is. And you've got to clearly define the end product. I w w the these this book walk for chair discipling and other study walk like Jesus lived like Jesus was developed while I was working of the mega church in Louisville Kentucky they had about 400 staff.

We were training all of their pastors in the life of Christ. And as they begin to teach these principles to others they became to us and said damn we need a simple curriculum or simple way to transfer of these principles to the thousands tens of thousands of people in our church. So we wrote that for chair to sapling and then the walk by Jesus looked like Jesus as a disciple-making pathway.

For to help people know what to do with chair three people what to do with chair one people what to do with chair two people. And so there's definitely a disciple-making pathway that you got to take people through. And the key thing here and this is where most people miss it. It's our goal. Most churches say the goal is to get people to chair to and start serving.

Hmm that's that's that's a baby Christian yet. Our goal is D you haven't made a disciple until they make a disciple. Our goal is to get people to cheer for where they leave someone to Christ. And now they have a baby. They become a father. The Bible says children young men fathers because they have a baby.

And then if they tune that regularly they'll even get the place like I'm at where you have grand babies. And life is really good when you have grandkids cause your kids have. And that's the joy of the Christian life. So that's what for church discipling walks through that pathway. I love it. Let me ask you cause I I think that that the north American church specifically and I've I was a local pastor before doing the disciple-making work I'm doing now.

one of the things that I was kind of wrestling with is is I'm not necessarily sure that. that the local church is always set up for disciple-making. It's not it's not quick enough form. It's not fast enough for them. It's not scalable enough. and I also see that that so much of what Jesus did was life on life.

Now I I'm not I'm not against curriculum. I'm not necessarily for curriculum. I I think we live in a tension of curriculum. For disciple-making versus non curriculum for disciple-making. I I know I can just tell by the way that you talk about Jesus that you probably live in the same tension and yet you're a curriculum creator.

How how does that how does that pull on your heartstrings? What's the right tension for you when you're discipling a guy? How do you how do you walk that back? for the first 40 years of leading SunLife and then global youth initiative we never wrote curriculum for that very reason because I'm an anti almost curriculum guy but people would say well what's your curriculum.

And I want my facetious side want to send them a Bible because

they can't relate to that. Yeah. Well I have a master's in education so I I understand that curriculum can have. But here's what happens with north Americans. We get so bound into a curriculum and I say this about my own too. That's why I don't like the promo too much. We just put it together to help this mega church get out the values.

and I think there's a lot of better stuff out there. Very honestly our guys in India have better stuff than we have here. So but but what what you want to do is impart a life but you got to have a clear plan of how to do that. And without a clear plan it's really tough. I went through Bible school seminary.

I got two masters a doctorate I've had I'm dumber than most. So I've had lots of schooling. And my problem is like Howard Hendrick says it take took me four years to get through seminary 40 years to get over it because I don't think I've made a disciple until they know everything I know. And that's a disaster.

Yeah well you got it. We got to get back to simple reproducible transferable nuggets and and and so curriculum can help if it's simple and transferable. And so that's the tension I always face. Yeah. That's well said. Dan I was with a staff team just this week and a question came up that comes up frequently.

And I want to ask it to you because I know that a lot of our listeners have thought about it or we'll think about it. And the question is this. We sometimes in disciple-making we talk so much and thanks so much about Jesus and his life. And a lot of people in the church especially pastors have been trained.

To think and look at the life and ministry of Paul and what's happening in the epistles and in acts two et cetera et cetera. And at first glance there really seems to be kind of a a conflict or a different methodology at play. And so the question normally comes out is like well yeah okay. Oh I see Jesus doing this but it seems like Paul was doing this other thing.

And so were they kind of wrestle through like well I don't know. I don't know which one to follow. It seems like we're in more of a Paul situation here than a Jesus situation. how would you speak to that? And have you have you faced that question before? I'm pretty sure you have yes. Lots of times. And there's sauce.

So many levels to answering this but give me the quickest. I think people see them in conflict because they don't understand the real Jesus. If you understand the real Jesus you'll see Paul just said imitate me as I am. I was just on a zoom call with all of our continent leaders about 50 of them altogether our country and continent leaders.

And we've got a guy who's written a book he's taken the the life of Christ that we teach the five phases and puts it in the book of acts and shows how Paul did exactly what Jesus did. And he's done a brilliant job but this guy has authored a lot of books. Paul Peter Rumsfeld is his name. He's our one of our leaders out of Australia.

But he he is he got he was saturated with Paul cause like most seminarians they are trained in Paul. You're not trained in Jesus. And so they try to exit gate back to Jesus and they miss the real Jesus. If you understand Jesus you'll see Jesus all over the new Testament. Yeah. And he Paul just did what Jesus sure.

He had a different context surely at a different timeframe but this guy and I Peter unfolds just taking the five phases of Jesus and shows the five phases in the book of acts over the three-year. And and all of us who've been trained in Jesus. Yeah. No brainer make sense. That's right. But so if you've never been trained in Jesus and you tr you've been trained in Paul which most and I went to seminary in bubbles that's where I was trained.

Mostly in Paul. They try to exit you back to Jesus and you just miss him. Yeah. You see your Christology defines your misseology which determines your ecclesial. Oh say that again. One more time. And this is the church in America. We have lost Christology nothing like the first few centuries of church of Christology.

The understanding of the real Jesus Christology defines your misseology. What is your mission? And we're getting better and better at that is to make disciples to make disciples Christology. Defined your misseology which determines your ecclesiology or you do church. Yeah. That's the pattern in the scriptures.

And so that's why there are a lot of patterns for how you do church. I mean I would just with our guys in India Benjamin Francis planted 57000 churches in the last 15 years or average about 25 30 people. The average age of the pastor is about 17 years of age. Wow. Hm. But they do it in huts not with buildings.

I mean I could go around the world and show you every church around the world in every continent is different but they all teach Jesus. Yeah. And how he made disciples and that determines ecclesiology in different cultures contexts. But unfortunately in America we have been so saturated with how you do church.

We talked church growth and we try to excavate back to Jesus. And that just makes a mess. That that actually might be the perfect segue to this new project that I'm I'm really intrigued by. And it seems like it's really gonna put together a lot of these pieces that we've talked about here today and we've kind of been dancing around it in indirect ways but I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about the light Jesus initiative and the work that you're doing there.

you you're putting out this kind of this app and resource that I think is going to be this incredible tool for churches to get back to a really solid crystal. I've mainly put it together. It's a curriculum. And if I could do it again I'd probably do it different. I don't think it's the best curriculum out there.

I'll just say it that way. And it's the first time I've written curriculum. We're supposed to be selling it. You're not for this mega church where we trained all of their 400 pastors in Jesus as a way to teach Jesus. Yes we've got to get back to the real Jesus. So yes that like Jesus initiative is good.

We identified three key things that we felt must be transferred from generation to generation. First was how Jesus made disciples. That's the four chairs that didn't stop on making pathway. Well how did Jesus do that? Chronologically and develop. Then the second thing was how did Jesus create a culture of what a disciple looks like?

That's walk like Jesus that's the acronym. Holy spirit power that we've got out of 35 years of studying the life of Christ. Here's what it means to walk as Jesus walked first John two six that's the second book in the study to walk like Jesus we call it a holy spirit power. Holy spirit dependent prayerfully guided obedience learned word centered exalt the father and everything and relationships with love and integrity.

That's our acronym for how do you create a foundation of people who understand the real Jesus in his humanity? And then the third book was live like Jesus. I just went to John 17. Cause I found in that one chapter. Just teaching the Bible in John 17 Jesus had seven I statements. And in that pride proudly prayer he says here's what I did to make my disciples.

He's got his arms around them. He's praying for them. And he's telling his father here's what I did to make these guys. I prayed for them. I protected them. I gave them the glory you gave me. I revealed you to them. I gave them the words you gave me and her seven I-statements. Someone who's spent their life studying Jesus.

I've got 90 plus hours of teaching on the life of Christ. That's kind of hard to put into a book. Right. But in one chapter Jesus gives me the. He said I prayed for them. I cared for them. He cared to presence. He cared Jewish purity. He cared to protecting. And then he shared with them. He shared the word he shared the ministry and he shared the coming glory.

So we just that last resource I think it was one of my best but it's a simple way for anybody to make disciples pray care share by doing the seven I-statements of Jesus to walk like. so that's what those are. They're not everything you need about Jesus. I mean we got hours and hours and hours and just this morning I could add another hour from what I learned studying but Jesus is he's a deep well deeper and deeper in Jesus.

And and so but those are three very simple transferable things. That's awesome. Yeah. Hey we're going to link to all this stuff in the show notes. I like to use this initiative. The books that Dan has written has been referencing Dan's website et cetera et cetera. Dan I wanted to ask you I know that Israel is a special place to you.

You mentioned you've been there dozens and dozens and dozens of times and led trips there. you mentioned in one of our conversations that you're kind of working on something related to. I know it's not a fit probably for all our listeners but there might be somebody out there that's been touched by what you've said by who you are and they might be interested to hear more.

Can you share a little bit about. Well I'm not sure what we're referring to here. There's a couple of things we're doing right now. Really Israel. We're doing a big gathering in Israel in 2023 for all our country leaders but I don't think we're referencing it was something that you're raising some money.

Maybe. I don't know if it was more than that especially it was raised. Yes it is for that Israel gathering where we bring all of our country leaders and key donors. Yeah. Okay. Cast the vision for living like Jesus and getting to know the real Jesus. But another thing we have just done and this is our Australian ministry helped put together.

And this for your listeners I think would appreciate. Okay there's an app it's or you just Google this knowing him.app app knowing K N O w I N G knowing him dot. You'll come you go that comes right up. There's a website and or you can download an app but there's it's it's our link for the website. And on that we have a 50 day chronological study of the life of Christ.

And so Jesus the baby Jesus has a boy. Jesus a young man. Jesus is a carpenter. Jesus launches his ministry. Then we look at the first phase of Jesus. Eventually. Second phase of Jesus the third phase. Now what our ministry in Australia. We also have produced 50 podcasts that go along with those 50 day chronological study of Jesus.

But then we also produce probably about 40 videos shot on location where this event happened in the life of Christ. Wow. So it's a great resource. If you want to get to know the life of Jesus better and see it linked to the land of it. Now there's so much more that could be done. Obviously you can't cover all of Jesus in 50 days but we overview in 50 days and you'll see the five phases in that.

And it's free knowing him.app. That's great. And we will link to that. And for our listeners I have done that study and it really is excellent. So I would recommend it really. And the beauty of this new website that our our Australian ministry put together. You can take all your notes right on the computer and keep them in storm.

Oh wow. Well if you can do an online study with others anywhere in the world and it's just the way they put together it's free. It's simple. It's transferable. That's great. I I I have one more question for you Dan but before I ask it I know that our listeners are going to want to connect with you online.

Where's the best place to learn about the next Jesus book you're writing or the next project or the next or all things dancing. Well probably one of our websites. You just go to concentric global.com. that's our international ministry concentric global.com. Go to sunlight.com or go to Dan spader.com.

there's a bunch of personal stuff. My story some other things I've done on Dan spader.com. I think some people might find a bit. Or email me dan@dannatgyi.cc. I'm totally okay. Love to talk with people. love to interact with them. So if I can serve any of your listeners more than glad to Mike just meet another Justin world changer world changer for sure.

okay. The last question I love to ask people when I'm interviewing them is an advice question except I get to take you back to a very specific time in your life. I ask you to give yourself some advice. So I'm going to ask you to go back and talk to young Dan the day after you graduated seminary.

So there you are the day after you graduated seminary. If you could go back and look that young man in the face what would you say so many years later be involved in work of the manual. Because if I Lehman verse six as I prayed that you're active in sharing your faith so that you come to a full understanding of all the good things you have in Christ Jesus.

Now I think that's the NIV translation but it's a great translation. In other words I think there's a lot of people been through Bible school seminary who still don't understand G. Because they've never given away Jesus it's when you give away Jesus you gain Jesus. And I think so many teenagers are walking from their faith because Jesus has been told them here's all the stuff you get with Jesus.

They've never given Jesus away. Therefore they'd never come to a full understanding of who they are in Christ. So without a vandalism you can't. Become a fully trained disciple discipling begins and ends with evangelism. I love it. Simple profound and yet so important. And I'll tell you I'm the worst at it.

I mean I evangelism is way down in my gift mix but I prioritize it for that reason. Well Yeah this this was like drinking Jesus through a fire hose. So I'm super thankful for that. I love talking about Jesus and I love what Jesus has changed your life and the way it's impacted so many. So thank you for being so generous to to chat with us today.

Thank you for your ministry and what you do for the kingdom. really all over the world. My pleasure. Anything I can do to serve any of your people let me know especially if you want to talk about. I go well we look forward to connecting again real soon here. Sure.