Practitioner's Podcast: How to End a Disciple Making Relationship

Hey everybody. Welcome back to the practitioners podcast. We're applying Jesus style disciple-making to every day life, this episode, and all of our episodes are powered by navigators church ministries, which focuses on helping churches, make disciples who can make disciples for more information, check out navigators, church ministries.org, Justin random question of the day.

Are you ready? I'm ready. What was the favorite song that you danced at at your wedding? Oh, wow. Okay. Favorite song? I'm me go back there. I'm going to, I'm going to go with, Hey ya. By Outkast. Wow. Outcast reference on the practitioner's podcasts. That's a first. I love it. That's right. Yeah. So today, Tony, we are going to jump into a topic that you're not going to ask me the question, the random question first.

I wasn't going to, well, I hadn't really thought about it. Right? So, I was going to say the first dance with my wife, which was by a firehouse. I finally found the love of a lifetime. I finally found the love, the monster ballot. Let's go. We don't need any singing on this podcast. all right. So today, Tony, we are talking about a topic that's super important and a topic that many disciple makers, have.

Haven't been trained in, they haven't heard about, and nobody's helped them with this. And as a result, as young disciple makers, we just try to figure it out. And I know in my life it has gone wrong. And in your life, you told me it's gone wrong, but the topic is how do we end a disciple-making relationship?

So we've prayed beforehand. We've gotten into a disciple-making relationship and how do we end it? And there's various reasons and it, we can get into that. that's where we're at today. Tony, how do we end these things? You know what I'm reminded of Justin? What the song breaking up is hard to do. I apologize to everybody for all Tony singing today.

Oh, it's about that second cup of coffee. That'll get you. Yeah. But you know, here's the thing, right? Like, we don't often talk about how to stop a relationship in a clear cut way that is honoring. Both individuals, because as much as we don't want to talk about breaking up or ending a relationship, when we do it well, and we do it with grace and truth and love it honors both people in the relationship in a way that helps them move forward and the relationship with Christ.

Right. And, and I think sometimes we, we undersell the importance of clear beginnings and clear ends because, It can be awkward or difficult, but the truth is the last thing that any disciple maker wants. And I think I can say this pretty definitively as for how our relationship started or ended to impact the way someone follows Jesus.

Long-term right. Yeah, for sure. Tony, why don't we start with answering the question of why, why, why might we want to end. I discipling relationship. What's the first thing comes to mind for you? for me, I think, if we go back to last week's episode and we talk about the four types of people who are undecipherable, and I think one of the things that we'll see in there is it may not be a good season for someone who was initially thought that they were going to be okay.

They initially thought that they were going to be all in. And so sometimes you get into a relationship and. I'm sure it's happened to you. I'm sure it's happened to a lot of us. We get into a relationship and then that relationship isn't, moving forward because they don't have the time, so it's not a good season.

So sometimes we need to end a relationship because it's just not a good season for someone to really lean in and do the work of disciple-making. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's good. And that's a really nice way of saying that somebody was. They're not being faithful or they're not being available or teachable.

And so if, if that's not happening, then at some point it becomes a bad investment of time. not only from, from the disciple makers end, but also from the disciples in. And that's, I think why you're using the word season there, because if they're not. Interested in growing and the way that we're trying to help them grow, because of whatever, whatever the reason is.

And sometimes there's some very legit reasons. You know, it's, it's serving them and helping the whole of the situation to just say, you know, let's, let's look at ending this in some way. the other thing that comes to mind as if, if it goes really well, you know, eventually it comes to a place where, you know, it needs to end and I don't mean the relationship needs to end, but, but the relationship will change and it's less of a disciple-making relationship and more of a.

peer to peer friendship. At some point, once somebody is grown to the maturity that, that you are at, and you feel like man, everything, I have to offer everything I had to help this person with. I've already done that. And I'm no, no further ahead of them now than they are with me. And so now we're just going to walk together and more of a peer to peer accountability learned together.

You know, those sort, that sort of relationship and the feel of it just changes. And so when that happens, it's another time where we need to have a conversation and to figure out, okay, well, what do we do from here, Tony? I'm gonna bounce it back to you in a second, but I want to share a story of a really bad injury.

And we've talked about and probably sometime in the future, we'll do like disciple-making mistakes. This is one of the mistakes that I made early on. I was a 23, I think, 24 decipher and a guy named Aaron down in Texas. And, you know, we'd had the set up conversation and, it just seemed like he wasn't being very fateful.

That's my recollection of it. So we had trouble getting on the same page. I would show up. He wouldn't sometimes. And you know, he was a younger guy as was I, and. Eventually, I tried to end it and basically said, you know, Hey, why don't you do this thing? And when you're done, let me know and we'll get back together.

And that was, that was the last conversation I ever had with Aaron. And it wasn't a negative conversation. He never got back to me. And I, I decided, I guess I wasn't going to chase him anymore. But even to this day, I feel bad about that because that was a bad way to end because I did care about him and I wonder what messages he took away from the way that kind of ended.

And so, that was a really bad ending that I had. Tony, how about you how's ending Ben for you or maybe gone, gone well or not? So well, so far. I mean, I wish I could tell you that, like, I didn't have any examples of bad endings, but the truth is, is I've got more than I, I carry shit and I'm, I'm notorious for, what I call the slow fade.

And so we, we start out really strong and intentionally, and then, and then from my perspective, right, like the efforts, just not there, that. You know, the, the intentionality is not there from the other person. And so then what ends up happening is I just put them less and less on my calendar. And to all of a sudden we just kind of like fade off.

Yeah. And one of the things I realized in this process, it it's, it's partly because. For a lot of my disciple-making relationships. I also serve the role as their pastor. And so some, some individuals feel like a little sense of guilt. Like, Hey, if the pastor says we should meet and wants me to do something, then I should go ahead and do it.

And the truth is, is sometimes as a pastor, I appreciate that. And sometimes, sometimes I don't because it's not fruitful. And so for me, the slow fade where. So we just started meeting and we meet less and less. And then next thing you know, we're only texting each other funny memes and not anything of actual substance, right?

Yeah, yeah, no, it is. It's, it's a big challenge. Isn't it? One of the reasons I think it's a challenge. You know, as we think about Jesus style, disciple-making this is one area that Jesus didn't leave us a great example to follow. Right. Because we don't know when our death is coming. so it's not like we can set up our guys and be like, Hey, you know, and about a few months here, I'm about out.

but also Jesus, I mean, the scripture that we do have about how he ended things, one of the main ones, Matthew 28, 20. Where Jesus says, I'll be with you always to the very end of the age. And so he had this ability to be with them and in a very, an internal, spiritual presence sense that he is with all of them all the time that us were just not able to replicate that.

but we do, as we think about reaching the nations, For Jesus and expanding the kingdom to all nations. Part of the reason we do need to have good endings is so we can move on to the next person who is ready and continue to multiply, disciple makers throughout the world. So, that's kind of the challenge that's before us, Tony, what are, what is one way or a couple of ways that you feel like we should.

Best practice sort of things and in making an ending. Oh, I think one of the things that we see from Jesus that is important to replicate is intentionality. And I know that that's one of your favorite words. and I think it's critical when Jesus called the disciples. He was very clear that he was calling them to follow me.

Right. He's common. Follow me. And so this idea about a clear beginning is a great way to make sure that you are understanding. What you're getting into and the disciple-making relationship. Oftentimes, if, if you fade into a disciple-making relationship, you'll fade out of a disciple-making relationship.

Ah, tell, tell us more about that. What do you mean by. Well, w w a lot of the instances where the guys that I were discipling and pouring into, we stop meeting. It was because I didn't start it out very clearly. And so I want to give people off-ramps if they need it so that we're not wasting each other's time.

Right. And so, over the years, what I've done is kind of refined my initial approach in that first couple of meetings where, where I'm I'm to basically tell them, Hey, this is what I want to do. I want to. Well, what I'd like to do is I'd like to enter into a real disciple-making relationship where I walk alongside you and your journey of faith will be rooted in scripture.

And then when we both think that you're ready, you will go and do the same, right? And, and if this is something you're interested in, we'll meet, I'll give you homework. There's an expectation that you'll do the homework. We'll set goals, we'll hold each other accountable. And if at any point in time, you don't want to do this.

All you have to do is say the word and say, it's not a good season. And, and, and we'll put it on the back burner officially. We'll put it on the back burner. Right. And so clear on ramps and clear off ramps, equal a better, more intentional relationship. Hmm. Yeah, I really liked that. It reminds me of, Bernay brown.

She used the phrase clear as kind and the more clarity we can have at the front. It makes it easier, at the back end, if, if it's gone well, or if it hasn't right, if it's gone, well, we can say, man, we're celebrating together what God has done and now what, what you are doing and discipling other people.

And we can have that conversation, but also it makes it easier if it's not going well, we can say, Hey, remember number a few months ago, we said we were going to do this. And you said you were up for it and it seemed like we got off to a good start, but now it feels like we're in a different phase or it seems like you're struggling now.

Let's talk about that. And we can open up that conversation and sometimes it might be us. They might be like, well, yeah, you're talking all the time. And you know, I just feel like I'm not able to engage well, or they might say something else about something that we're bringing into the relationship that we need to adjust.

Or it might be something that's going on in their own heart, their own life. And they're trying to get through it. But especially as young disciple makers, we have some blind spots that, you know, the other person might not be experiencing this relationship very well or the way that we hope. And so if we don't get that feedback, we can't adjust and they might just run away.

And then we take that same thing into the next discipling relationship. And then we have, you know, not, I wouldn't call it necessarily a failure, but we're, we're not, not getting where we want to go time after time after time, because it's something we need to adjust now for me, one of the things that I will ask in that conversation is I'm trying to assess.

What is the problem here? Why isn't it working well? And sometimes it's a vision problem. Sometimes they're not seeing it because I'm not communicating it. Well, sometimes it's one of those faithful available teachable things. And if it's a faithfulness or availability issue, Then then, you know, there are some subtle ways to, to check that, right.

And to one of the ways that I do that does work well when I do it well, and I referenced it already is I'll give an assignment and I'll say, man, it seems like you're really busy or you're having trouble getting through these. why don't you just let me know when this is, when you get this done and we'll set up our next meeting.

Now as I'm doing that, I am, doing that as a way to assess this person's hunger and how invested they are in the relationship still. but I won't do what I did with Aaron and want to do with Aaron. I just said that. And then I never talked to the guy gangs. He never came back, but what I'll do is if we're meeting on an every other week, I'll wait for at least two weeks, maybe three weeks.

And if I haven't heard from them, I'll reach back out and set up another time and then we'll talk about, Hey, you know, did you get that done? No. Okay. Well, let's talk about it. And then we can begin to unpack where we're at, in that conversation. But again, clear is kind. And if we don't like, like you said, Tony, if we don't set it up well at the front end, it gets really hard to have this sort of conversation at the.

Yeah. And I think you brought up a really great point about evaluation because oftentimes we don't stop to evaluate how the relationship is going. And what we ended up doing is we end up, limping along and, and what eventually will become a time suck. Right. And it's not, it's not like a person isn't valuable.

It's not like the relationship isn't important. It's just, we're not getting to where we want to go. And, and. And so I always think that when it comes to evaluation, we first have to evaluate ourselves. Right. So, so how am I doing as a disciple maker? Am I putting the intentionality in? Am I giving them clear barriers to clear markers to hit?

Am I, am I talking to things? And if I'm really struggling in a relationship, I'll go to another disciple maker like you, or some of the guys who have discipled me and I'll be like, man, I don't know, like I might be messing this up and I'll just ask, you know, what I call the counsel of the godly. Right?

I want to talk to the godly men. Who've done this before me. I want to ask the question. Is there anything that you see in what I'm doing that may or may not be working. Right. And, and then after I've evaluated myself fully, then I'll go and I'll evaluate the guy that I'm discipling fully. And I'll ask the question, okay, let me look at a complete picture of his life.

Not just my meetings, my meetings are important, but they're secondary to family and things like that. So we'll take a macro look at the person's life we'll kind of, and then begin to evaluate that and then decide like, Hey, this. This is a conversation and sometimes a great approach to deciding if you're going to end the relationship or not is to go in and say, Hey, I'm not sure that I'm serving you the best way that I can, or I'm not sure that this relationship is serving you well.

And I feel like I'm failing you in this way, or I feel like we're not getting somewhere in this way and just ask the question, right? Because once you put it on the table, people will tell you how they feel. Right. Yeah, that's really good. The other thing though, that that sometimes can happen and we shouldn't, we should talk about Tony is if somebody feels like it's going really well.

But you don't feel like it is right there. They're there every time they've done their stuff, but maybe they're never applying it outside of those meetings. They're just there to talk and to, have, have that focus attention, which a lot of people crave in our culture. how do we handle that sort of setting or that sort of situation in a way that is gracious and kind, but also is helping them move towards becoming a disciple.

I think that the way to do that as, and it is to keep the vision in the dialogue, the vision of, of the original on-ramp the clarity in the beginning, you know, the clearest kind idea to keep that in the forefront of the conversation routinely. So oftentimes it's disciple makers will say that in the very beginning, and I've done this before numerous times that we won't go back to it.

But I think, I think what you're saying, and I think what, what I'm saying is that. is that we have to keep the vision in front of us, you know, kind of like what havoc two says, right? Write the vision down clearly so that the Harold's may run with it. That feels like a very important part of, of clarity and intentionality.

And knowing that, Hey, if you can't get there, you'll know it because you were feeling. Right. Yeah. That's excellent. That's excellent. the other thing we should mention, probably two more things here is one. If it goes really well, what does that look like for that relationship to shift? And I kind of alluded to it already, but you kind of know it because it feels more like you're going to hang out with your friend than you are to intentionally move them anywhere.

And so when you, when you are to a place where. You don't see much else that you can help that person grow in their maturity is, is pretty much the same as yours. They are discipling. That's really big, right? So they are actually discipling somebody and it's going well, cause you're checking in with them and helping them with that.

And you know, they've probably done it with more than one person now. So it's not brand new to them. that's the time for the, that conversation of not ending the relationship, but shifting it to, just a friendship, right. Or an accountability relationship and saying, Hey, you know, I know we've been meeting every other week for a while now.

I feel like what I had to give you, you already have, and I'm learning as much here as you are. And, you know, I still enjoy meeting with you, but, I'd like to move on to somebody that needs more, more help. And is there a disciple maker they're gonna have that desire as well? And so that re that conversation's generally fairly easy, but then it's just a matter of either changing the rhythm, keeping the rhythm, or just totally starting a new phase.

And you know, as I've talked about this with guys, I say, well, it's just going to look like a friendship. So when I think about you and want to see you, I'm going to call you up or I'm going to text you or whatever, and you do the same with me and oh, okay. And so we move into that new, phase of, of friendship.

Tony. Any thoughts on that, that you wanted to contribute to share pushback on? Oh, I know I would just, I would kind of back up the sediment that. It's important to still keep those relationships in your life. Yeah. It's easy if you, especially if you're task oriented to want to kind of mind for those things, new relationships all the time.

Yeah. But a lot of my growth comes from, the people who've transitioned from disciple these to, to peer disciple makers. And there's a lot of fruit. There's more fruit in that than you think. Maybe we should do an episode on it sometime, but yeah, it's a it's good stuff. It's good stuff. Good. Good. the other thing I want to mention here at the back end of the episode is God might ask you to stay in relationship with somebody or to continue to meet with them with regularity, even if it's not going well, or it's not a discipleship relationship.

So I don't want any listeners to hear. Oh, if somebody is not performing in a certain level, we're not going to meet with them with regularity. Sometimes we will do that, but it's because we feel like God is asking us to make that investment in the person's life. But we're not gonna, we're not gonna say it's discipleship or disciple-making, we're just gonna say we're, we're investing in them.

We're loving on them, et cetera, et cetera. all right, Tony, we're about out of time here. Can you give us our takeaway and action step and take us out for the. Yeah, the takeaway here is simple, but not easy. clear OnRamps create clear offerings. And like Bernay brown said clear is kind so clear on ramps.

Create clear off ramps, be intentional in the beginning so that you can be intentional at the end, the action step. Hey, take some time this week and evaluate how your disciple-making relationship is going. Right. What adjustments need to be made? How are you doing as a disciple maker? How are they doing as a disciple?

And is the relationship producing the kind of fruit that you want from it? evaluation. Hey guys. We're so thankful to be on this journey with you guys, and we love talking about disciple-making with you, and it's been great to hear so much feedback from, from all you guys. And, we just really appreciate the journey.

Do us a favor, hit that subscribe button, wherever you listen to podcasts, leave us a rating or review on iTunes and the biggest compliment you can get. Share this episode with your friend, maybe your pastor, somebody you're discipling somebody. You want to be discipling. We more than anything, want this to be a tool in your disciple-making tool belt.

Thank you guys so much and we'll see you real soon.