Hey everybody welcome back to the Practitioner's Podcast. We're applying Jesus style disciple making to everyday life. This episode and all of our episodes are powered by Navigator's Church Ministries. For more information or to get connected go to navigatorschurchministries. org. Justin why don't you tell everybody who's perfect for this episode?

 

Everyone is perfect for this episode. Right. So here here's the deal like

 

love it. So  today's episode is about developing appropriate tension in your disciple making relationship. It is targeted at disciple makers right? Because you're the one that's setting the temperature the culture within the relationship. So it's specifically for you but the situation we're thinking of is this.

 

Your disciple making relationship you can sense it's not going great. Maybe it's okay. Maybe you're connecting well with the person. Maybe the conversation is going really well but it just lacks energy. It lacks that certain something that feels like it makes it go somewhere right? And so we talked recently about the difference between friendship and disciple making and how to how do we do that?

 

This has some similar notes but but the reality is that if your disciple making relationship does not have any dynamic tension to it. Then it's going to be really hard for you to help that person get where they need to go to become a disciple maker.  You know one of the things that's interesting about this idea is the word tension.

 

And long ago when I first ever preached on tension I came up with this kind of idea around tension and it has to do with a rubber band. And so you've all seen a rubber band before. You've probably shot one at someone in a class somewhere. But think about a rubber band. When you begin to pull a rubber band from both sides you apply tension to the band right?

 

Now here's what's interesting that we don't think about very often. There's only two ways to relieve tension  either walk towards each other right? Take the two ends that are been pulled tight and walk towards each other or decide to let go completely.  And what. What I think we're going to suggest to you today is that in disciple making relationships that have no tension it's really easy to become complacent and not work towards each other.

 

Yeah that's a great analogy. So if we're thinking about that we take it a step further. If you're trying to shoot a rubber band across the room and you don't have tension in the rubber band it will go nowhere.  Or if you will try and it will go like an inch and you'll be like well that's not what I had in mind.

 

And so the same thing is true in disciple making that there has to be some tension in the relationship for movement to happen.  Another way to say that is we have to have some vision. Now part of the problem in this and one of the ways that  people get into this situation with those that they're discipling is they lean too heavily into the relational side or they lean not just relational but they're doing intentional without any sort of challenge or confrontation  right?

 

Now confrontation can be a scary word and I don't mean it like hey I'm confronting you and you know I'm going to Rebuke you for these wrong things. I'm not talking about any of that. What I'm talking about is you know can you highlight? Can you contrast the difference between what is where they are in their relationship with God?

 

Where they are as a disciple or a disciple maker and where they need to get to you know said another way if there's no conversion If you can't help them change from one thing to the next then you're not really helping them move. And conversion happens when there's confrontation when there's contrast.

 

When there's something like challenge  one of the things that I love about this idea is that I think we see Jesus Do it beautifully and Matthew 419 now you know Matthew 419 if you've listened to this podcast before we love to reference it Jesus calls the disciples and he says come follow me and I will send you out to fish for people I will make you fishers of men now what's interesting about this call is that it's a sense of urgency Right?

 

Urgency creates tension in this call. There's a sense of   of like a lack of clarity about the destination.  Jesus says come follow me. And he doesn't tell them where they're going. And so the very nature of this idea about like Hey follow me. I'm not going to tell you where we're going. I'm not going to tell you how we get there.

 

All I'm saying is that your future lies with me. That creates. Some natural tension and  I'm going to use the word command and I don't mean it in like a military sense but I mean it in like a rabbi to pupils kind of sense. There's a sense of command in Jesus saying Come follow me. If you want what I have you must be willing to move.

 

Okay. I love that Tony because you are bringing in Jesus's example. And as we often do and as we need to do as disciple makers we need to look at him to establish our patterns and methods of disciple making. So one of the ways that I see Jesus developing appropriate tension with his disciples is he says hard things to them.

 

He doesn't always play nice. Right. Sometimes he says are you still so dull? You have little faith. I mean even how long am I going to have to put up with you? Now I'm not saying we're going to quote Jesus to to those that were discipling in that way. But what I am suggesting is he is laying down a pattern of relating with the disciples.

 

That carries some energy that carries some guys. We are going somewhere. I need you to be developing Why why aren't we there yet? And like you mentioned there's some urgency there right? It's not just friendship the way that we would think about it in our contemporary American culture where we play nice almost all the time unless we lose our temper Right?

 

We're real kind. There's never any challenge involved. And I think that's part of what I'm trying to get at in this episode. is that encouragement for those that we're discipling is a must. It is a must. You must be encouraging those that you're discipling. But just as necessary as encouragement is challenge is also necessary.

 

And so I think about  coaches that I've had in the past or you know trainers in the weight room that sort of energy that's like come on you can do better than this. You can do this. Sometimes it's that same level of intensity on the positive side right? Which is a great way to encourage. But other times if we want to bring about change we need to have some energy around challenge.

 

 and some urgent energy around that challenge.  One of the things I love about that imagery Justin as I think that it brings up a really good point  that I often like to use when it comes to like the weight room. So you get stronger by time under tension right? You build strong muscles by time under tension.

 

And so one of the interesting parts about time under tension is that in the moment it doesn't feel good but chemically your body. Responds to time under tension. So the more time under tension you have the stronger you get. And this is scientifically proven. The more endorphins you release the happier you are right?

 

It's one of the ways that people talk about dealing with depression. Put yourself in a challenging situation that forces you to release endorphins. And I actually think that's true when it comes to following Jesus. And I you know we.  We see Paul talk about how you know the difference between milk and solid food in the scripture and what you're ready for when you're in a disciple making relationship it's time to really lean into solid food and we have to force people to move.

 

One of the tools that you and I use is the  the disciple makers loop. Right. And this  where somebody is we did a couple episodes on it last season whether they're an infant or young adult or adult or mature believer. I think I missed child in there but you get the idea. Go back listen to those episodes.

 

  you have to keep moving to a place of spiritual maturity and you'll never do that  spiritually without  challenge. and intentional relationships.  Exactly right. So as I was thinking about how do we communicate this? How do we help you that are listening develop a practice or a habit of this? We need Tony you and I need to get into how do we do this right?

 

How do you do it in a disciple making relationship? How do you do it in a disciple making meeting in a way that is natural and that fits the context of what you're doing. And so I have  I think three three things here is I was just thinking all right how do I do this when with the guys that I disciple and meet with?

 

Okay the first thing I do is I'm asking questions and listening. And as I'm listening I'm listening specifically for certain things. I'm listening for values that they're expressing. I'm listening for priorities. I'm listening for how they're spending their time or what is stressing them right now.  I'm listening for their beliefs about themselves.

 

When I hear something that doesn't align with what I believe Jesus is calling us to be  then I lean in and ask questions. Right? So I'll say hey can you tell me more about that?  You know it might be about the time that they're spending with God. It might be about something someone they're discipling.  Or sometimes those questions are just how I how I have some material to listen to.

 

And really why I need that material is because as they talk they're gonna be sharing with me the inner parts of who they are  what's on their heart. And so those are kind of the first two things that I'm doing. And when I see or hear something then I ask more about it. And then we can get in the word and kind of look.

 

And so that will naturally lead to some of that. That challenge or that tension of just looking together Tony what what are your what's your reaction to that? Or kind of what do you have thoughts on?  Well I actually wanted to share one of the most frustrating ways that you put tension in our relationship when we first met  I know you love these stories.

 

Well I so so listen I when I met Justin I was a new pastor. And  but I had been in pastoral ministry for almost seven years at that point. I'm sorry almost five years at that point plus my time in the army. And so one of the things that no one had ever done before in a relationship with me as a pastor is put me under tension.

 

And so now Justin was always. He was mostly respectful about it and  I'm kidding.  but here's the way that he did it most often. He would ask me the question where do you see that in scripture?  And it was a really simple tool that I began to use and still use in in my disciple making relationships.

 

When I meet with the guys at the gym when I meet with the guys who  who are newer to the faith or who who have strong opinions. I I actually don't really care what their opinions are as much as I care that they're rooting their answer in scripture. Now I'll tell you what that does is that if you're meeting with someone and you look them in the eyes and say  well where do you find that in scripture?

 

It immediately turns the temperature up inside the internal body about 10 degrees. And it's like  well  I know it's in there somewhere. And  And and I you know I could get close. So Justin oftentimes in our meetings he would say well you know where do you where do you think it is? And I'd be like well I think it's and he was like well why don't you just go find it?

 

And then we would stop the whole meeting so I could find the scripture I was thinking of so that it was. It was prudent to the disc to see if it was really prudent to the discussion we were having. So not only was Hey where do you see that in scripture but it was also is is the context in which you're using that verse.

 

Correct?  Yes. Yep. And so when we use that tool  or when I use it I should say my goal it's an honest question. And so it's not accusatory right? So it I can't control how he's receiving it but I'm doing my best and out of me and out of my heart I'm not accusing. I'm not suggesting it's not in there. If I don't if I think that's wrong I might ask the same question but my hope is that I'm going to learn something.

 

Where do you where is that? Where do you get that from? And occasionally I do. Occasionally I'm like Well yeah I never thought about that. I never looked at it that way. And so when I'm asking it that's my presption. There's something here that I don't understand and I'm not aware of. And so the person I'm discipling who's expressed something that seems off to me  deserves the my trust and the opportunity to show me something new.

 

Right? And but it does. I mean the reality is I know that when I ask that question it it brings some tension because now it's not just well I'm I just think that. It is well prove it. I mean it's another way of like prove it. Like if that's and I tell the guys I disciple regularly I genuinely don't mind if we disagree.

 

I'm okay with it. You don't have to believe what I believe. You don't have to whatever. But like you said Tony like I want your beliefs and your convictions to be rooted in Scripture. And so if you root somewhere differently than me and I see it a little bit differently I'm okay with that. But what I'm not okay with and I'm not sure God is okay with is us having deep convictions that are rooted somewhere outside of the Scriptures.

 

And so you know again as we're thinking about the how when you hear a value or a priority or the way that they handled something that in your mind it just seems a little bit different or maybe not as good as what you would do you have to have a way of asking about that that is kind and that is not saying well that was a db thing to do.

 

You should have done it this way right? Like you as a disciple maker have a lot to learn too. And so genuinely asking and leaning in with curiosity. is really important but it also helps develop this tension that really kind of can catapult both of you forward in the relationship.  So we've talked a little bit about listening listening for values listening priority.

 

We talked about asking questions. We gave you a very specific question. That is a great tool if you want to use it. The third thing we want to talk about is walking to application right? And so application is one of those things. It's it's a rubber meets the road kind of moments. We want to take the person that we're discipling to to go out and practice it.

 

So one of the things that I do with all the guys that I disciple is I challenge them to pray with their spouses. I want them to go and apply it. And so then I want them to come back and talk to me about that experience. I'm going to put them in situations through application that creates natural.

 

Tension right? What are you taking away from our time today? What's the smart goal? What's the takeaway? What's the the the movement right? Because information as Justin likes to say plus application leads to transformation. So information plus application leads to transformation.  Yeah absolutely. So we're we're moving in our relationship in our meetings towards no we're going to apply something here.

 

We're not just having a nice conversation. Yeah. And that's okay to do and it's not that we can never do that but in general almost all the time we're thinking about well what has God shown you? What has God shown me that I can do something with? Now sometimes the do something with is you know I need to think more about this or I need to pray  more about whatever it is and to just establish a deeper conviction about it.

 

And so that's okay too. It doesn't always have to be action. But again we want you in this episode our goal is for you guys to really be thinking about is there enough or  appropriate as the best word appropriate tension in your disciple making relationship. And generally if there's not you know it.

 

You know it.  Tony can you help us just kind of take us out of this episode with takeaway action step final thought if you have that.  Absolutely. I think that the term that we used at the beginning of the episode is the one that I'm going to leave us with. And that's this idea about dynamic tension.

 

Dynamic tension moves in and out as needed. It's a tool to help move people forward. So the takeaway today. If your disciple making relationship doesn't have dynamic tension it'll end up stuck.  If your disciple making relationship doesn't have dynamic tension it will end up stuck. The action step? Well as it often is it's an evaluation action step.

 

Evaluate the level of tension in your disciple making relationships. What tools from today's episode do you need to start using to propel your relationship forward? As always super thankful for you and the opportunity that we have to go on this journey together. We love learning from you. We love hearing from you.

 

So as always do us a favor hit us up on Instagram Facebook or email us. And guys thank you so much. We'll be back in a couple of weeks with a brand new episode. We'll see you real soon.