So if we believe that we can't become like him, then we can't intentionally make others who are like him. Hm.

Hey everybody. Welcome back to the practitioners podcast. We're applying Jesus' style disciple-making to every day. Life. This episode is powered by navigators church ministries, which focuses on helping churches. Make disciples who make disciples for more information, or to get connected to navigators, church ministries, check them out.

www.navigatorschurchministries.org. Justin, how are you doing this morning? Ma'am my friend. Hey, doing pretty good. Just getting through lots of busy-ness, but, uh, it's been fun. It's been a fun season. Yeah. You know what? It has been a busy season for you. Um, you recently, and I know we talked about this a couple episodes ago, but you have recently published an ebook and you've done some things with discipleship.org and recorded a talk with them.

Tell me all about, um, kind of the Genesis for that and, and what you've been doing. Yeah. So just recently I had a, a one hour webinar with, uh, Dr. Bobby Harrington about the book and, um, it was just a rich time, uh, talking about it. Um, it's been interesting, Tony, because for me, So much has gone into the book already, right.

Writing it and thinking through it and then crafting it down to, you know, its final form. Um, and now I'm in this phase of like promotion and, you know, just getting the word out, which isn't one of my favorite things ever, but I know it's important. Um, And as I've thought more and more about the impact, the book is already having, uh, I'm happy to do it, right.

So what I've seen is that so many churches don't have a plan for disciple-making, uh, some want to and start to practice it, and they kind of hit the ground running, uh, kind of shoot first aim later sort of situation. And the result is that there's some, there's some momentum and progress or what looks like real progress for a few years.

Um, and then it kind of all falls in on itself. And so without a foundation disciple-making, uh, doesn't last in the local church. So that's kind of what the book looks at. Yeah. It's the foundations of a disciple-making culture. It's and it's really, I mean, I, I thought you did a great job of, of interweaving stories and practical application.

And as somebody who's trying to build that foundation and in our own church and, and having a meeting, you know, A little bit of success, not a ton, not nearly enough, right? Like, um, I, I thought it was a refreshing, like little jolt of, Hey, you know, you can do this. This is why it's important. And, and really, I, you know, I think it, it solves a problem that has been kind of plaguing the church for a really long time.

Yeah, that's my hope. And that's my prayer, right? That it, it has an impact and people find it helpful and it moves disciple-making forward, uh, where they are and in their own lives. So, yeah. We'll see. So, Tony, I got a question for you though. If you're ready to transition. I don't know. We ready? Yeah, no, it's good.

Okay. Um, challenge for you today. Can you name two things that Jesus did? That someone else didn't do the same sort of thing. Like another human being didn't do the same thing. Uh, I mean, obviously this has to be in scripture, right? Like I can't just say like Jesus, you know, converted my heart. No. Yeah.

We're talking about scripture, maybe miraculous things that he might've done while he was here on earth. Um, anything like that? Well, I mean the first one I need to think about here out, so I'm just going to brainstorm and talk out loud if that's okay. Kernel processors. So that's good thing. Yes. Yeah. Uh, much to my wife's dismay or bane of existence.

Um, I have to talk through everything. Um, Raising someone from the dead? Um, no, I mean, I guess somebody else did that in scripture, too, right? Yeah. Peter did that. Paul did that. Elijah did that. Okay. So that one doesn't count, um, feeding, feeding 5,000 feeding 5,000. Okay. You to do that too. Well, he did it wasn't 5,000, but he did the same sort of thing, right.

When he multiplied. Food for the widow and her son. Um, man, um, I'm really thinking here. Uh, this is tough if you're thinking wherever you're listening. I mean, a friend of mine asked me this a while back and it was a hard one for me. The first thing I say, kind of knee jerk was like, oh, walking on water. And my friend's like now Peter walked on water was just after that.

I was like, Right. Well, I want to say resurrection, does that count? Okay. Uh, maybe, I mean, technicality, whether or not Jesus did that in life, as much as the holy spirit did. Yeah. Uh, that's a whole different theological conversation, but okay. So all of this is interesting and we could probably play Bible trivia for awhile, but, um, I mean, w why does it matter us?

Yeah. So the big reason it matters in what we're talking about today is the humanity of Christ that Jesus was fully human. And if we don't understand that Jesus was fully human, then we can miss that. What he, we miss really what he accomplished on the cross and his example for us. So if we believe that we can't become like.

Then we can't intentionally make others who are like him. And so this is a, a real big deal in disciple-making. Right? Uh, I don't know what your experience is, but in, in mine, working with other believers, especially in America, there's this. There's this sense of well, yeah, but that's Jesus. And so, you know, we kind of put him in his own category when we think about things that he did or, you know, whatever.

And really over 40 times in the gospels, Jesus says, follow me or do what I'm doing. And my friend Dan Spader, who's a disciple maker, discipleship.org group too, right. Is yeah, Mendez guy he's helped me with this. And one of the things that he said to me is our Christology will determine our misseology, which will determine our ecclesiology.

And there's a lot of allergies in there. So let me unpack that a little bit, but our Christology or our understanding of genes. Will determine our misseology or misseology is the escape shape and scope of our mission with Jesus. So our Christology understanding will determine the shape and scope of our mission with Jesus, which all that determines our , which is our beliefs about the type of disciples the church is called to be and to make.

And so, uh, and disciple-making are in the churches. People often say, Well, yeah, disciple-making sounds nice, but that's Jesus. I'm not him. And so I've even had pastors tell me that. Well, disciple-making sounds great, but I'm not, I can't make a disciple. That's what Jesus. Right. And so we get that tension well, and I think part of that tension comes in because of, of what theologians like to call that the hypostatic union.

Right. And that's a, it's a big term, but what it really means is that Jesus was both fully man and fully God. Right. And, and so. You know, the goal kind of in our dialogue today is that both of these things exist together. And honestly, you know, we're going to pretend like we're going to solve this in 20 minutes.

You may not understand this fully in 20 minutes. But part of that is because I don't want a God that I can fully understand, but I do want a God that I can fully follow. Right. And in Jesus, in his, um, in his complete humanity and his, um, Time on earth, gives us a picture to follow. As a matter of fact, one of the things that, that you and I have talked about is that, um, th that a pixelated picture of Jesus will always result in a blurry picture of the man.

I'm going to say it again for the people in the back, a pixelated picture of Jesus will always result in a blurry picture of the mission. And the mission is what he calls us to and, and, and a Christian community that is unclear on who we are or what we're going to do. Uh, only creates, you know, more pixelation.

We have to get laser focused on following Jesus and his time here on earth. One of the things that you and I have talked about before, and one of the things that I'm working on in my own faith walk right now is, is another thing that, uh, I think you got it from Dan Spader and that's that if we look at the life of Jesus, the narrative of Jesus is that I want to be able to drop into the narrative at any point.

And know where I'm at in the story. I want to follow Jesus that much, that I'm that familiar with his life. That's like, Hey, this is, you know, right after Jesus fed the 5,000, this is what comes next. Or this is what happened before it. And, uh, you know, I can do that with some movies, but I haven't figured out how to do that yet.

As I look at the life of Christ. Right. Yeah. And so important. Right? Because if, if the goal is to become like him, then we need to have a familiarity with not only who he was, but what he taught and how he made disciples. And so, you know, some verses that, uh, That speak to this idea of him being our example.

Um, Luke six 40, it says a student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher. And so as we grow and become more and more like him, then we're going to become just like him. Uh, and so that's, that's Jesus talking. Paul had the same idea first Corinthians 11 one, he says, follow my examples.

I follow Christ. Peter had the same idea. First Peter, 2 21 Christ suffered for you leaving you an example that you should follow in his steps. John had the same idea. First John, two six, whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. So we have all these scriptures that a lot of times we just miss.

If we don't really understand that Jesus lived a life that was meant for us to look at as an example. Now we get hung up on this a lot though, don't we, because we see in the gospels, all these amazing things that Jesus is doing, right? He's healing people, he's driving out demons. He seems to know the future in certain situations.

And so we're just not sure what to do with that. And so most of the time we just kind of sweep it away and like, well, that's Jesus. So I guess that's the way it works. But what Dan helped me realize, and he developed this analogy of, of a credit card. And so Tony it's like Jesus walked around with a God credit card in his pocket.

And he could pull it out at any time. And at one point he references it in Matthew 26, he says, do you think I can not call him my father? And he will at once put at my disposal more than 12 legions of angels. And that's like, Hey guys, I got this power, not the flex. It's a little bit of a flex right there by Jesus.

I'm not even pulling this out right now, but just so you know, I got, I could do this whenever I want, but two tells us that Jesus did not consider equality with God, something to be grasped or used to his own advantage, advantage any emptied himself and took on the nature of a human servant. And so, you know, if you think about that, Jesus went through life.

Um, on the earth and he didn't do anything out of his identity as God. He had it with him the whole time. He was God, the whole time, but the way that he acted and move through the world was as a full human. And he never pulled that credit card out and used it. And so that's why that question we asked at the front what he do, right.

A human didn't. Do we don't have any examples? Well, I think one of the things that's interesting to me as I've now, uh, um, done vocational ministry in the local church for the last 10 years, there, there seems to be this, um, uh, kind of assumption. And I think it's, I think it comes from some historical church baggage, even that the pastor or the priest, you know, I, I grew up in the Catholic church.

The priest is the only one who can do certain things, you know? And, and so. Um, early on. And I honestly, I think this goes back a little bit to education and, and who had access to reading the scripture and our ability. So there, there was a clear separation, um, not because of, I think what scripture says, but mostly because of social economic, Um, brokenness, right?

That, that there wasn't an ability to say, Hey, listen, I can follow Jesus too. I can be, you know, as Peter would say the priesthood of all believers, right? Like I can, I can do that too. Um, and instead we've relegated it to the pastors. The pastoral staff or the pastor Lorne, any of those people who serve in the church and are, are the boss.

And so, you know, I think this happens a lot with disciple-making is like, oh, I can't, I can't do that. Or I can't follow Jesus that way. Cause I'm not Jesus, but yet, um, but Christian, you know, literally translate into and you know, this little Christ and so. I think that there are some practical implications, if we're going to identify as a Christian that are really important to know.

Yeah. Yeah. Totally agree. So let's, let's unpack two of them for those that are listening here. So the first one practical implication is that since Jesus is our model, Then his life defines our mission. So since he was fully human, I can look at his life and say, you know, there's nothing that Jesus did.

That's outside of my ability to do the limiting factor on my life is the power of the holy spirit, his work in me. Right. And so the disciples were first called into a disciple-making relationship with Jesus, their model for that. Uh, was that they would follow Jesus, they'd follow the rabbi in order to become just like him.

And so that was, I mean, when they were called into that, that's what they expected. And so the disciples were, were on that path to becoming just like Jesus. And that should be the same path that we're on so that when we are engaging him and learning about him, it's not an academic exercise. It is a pursuit of becoming.

I love that. I also think that if, if we're looking at the other practical implications, I think that Jesus, since Jesus is our model and he defines our mission, that we don't define our mission. He defines our mission. Then his methods are also. Uh, to be emulated, right? Like we can't miss the fact that not only do we have to listen to Jesus's words, which are, are critically important and his mission is our mission.

And we, you know, we need to pick up kind of that, um, that cross to follow Jesus, but we also have to pick up his methods in order to accomplish the mission. Right. W we don't want to sell ourselves short. By not using the resources that Jesus gave. Look, this is one of my favorite things about being a disciple-making Christian is that we have access.

We have the exact same access to all the resources that Jesus used in his ministry. There are available to us that the word, the prayer, the spirit, the fellowship, I mean, Jesus. W when Jesus prayed for his disciples, he prayed for us to use those things. Right. And I get so frustrated. I know I'm preaching here, but like I get so frustrated with Christians who sell the power of Jesus short in their own lives.

You know, like Jesus lives in us. He's there, he's doing the work. And Ephesians tells us that doing a measurably more than we can ask for are magic. Is the Spirit's work in us. This is, this is what we're supposed to do. Don't look disciple makers who are listening right now. Don't sell yourself short.

Don't do it. Jesus wants to do something amazing in you and, and, uh, and we can do all that. Don't you? I mean, don't you think I'm just screaming here. I'm sorry. Right. And the thing is, so if this is true, right? If we've convinced you that Jesus is a life has meant to be an example for us, that he didn't do anything out of his divinity on earth, that his ministry came out of his humanity, then that has big implications for you because it means that.

It is possible for you not only to make one disciple. But to make a team of disciple makers that could impact the entire city, the entire state, the entire planet, right. It's possible. And, and all, you know, the verse that Tony referenced Ephesians three 20 and 21, uh, can do a measurably more than all we can ask or imagine.

But the limiting part of that, it says according to his power, that is at work within us. And so. The limiting factor is to what degree are we surrendering our own heart and our own life for the spirit to have free reign in us and to, to do the things that he was able to do with Jesus. And so I'm excited by that, just like you are Tony, because that means.

Uh, I can continue to grow. I can continue to allow the spirit to have more and more of, of me, which is going to have a direct correlation to the impact that I'm able to have in the world. And that's super exciting for me. Uh, all right. Let's get to our implication or takeaway rather, uh, Tony, can you give us our takeaway and then I'll do our action step.

Uh, okay. Takeaway follow Jesus in order to become just like Jesus, not just to grow right. Allow, allow your vision in your life to grow as big as Jesus. Not, not just disciple one or two, but disciple to build a movement that will reach the nations and change the world. I mean, think about it like this guys.

Jesus discipled 12 to read it. Us to reach you. You who are listening right now. Jesus discipled those 12 people to reach you. Who are you going to pour into to reach the next. Yup. Awesome. Our action. Step this time, share the importance of Jesus' humanity with somebody else's week. So if you, if you picked up a new, uh, insight from our conversation today, if something hit you, um, that you think is pretty important, share it with somebody else.

Doesn't matter who. Right. Could be your spouse. It could be, your friend could be your dog. It doesn't matter. Just share it with somebody. And the other thing that, um, just, just meditate and pray on that, that, okay. God, if this is true, that you're a, my example then help me to live into that helped me to see Jesus as that, not just as this divine person that lived on the earth, that I can't be like.

So guys, thank you for being with us today. We're always, uh, honored by your, your listening and tuning in, uh, the best compliment you can give us is by subscribing and then leaving a rating or review, uh, wherever you get your podcasts. And, uh, we'll see you guys next time. Thanks.