Welcome back to the practitioners podcast. We're applying Jesus' style disciple-making to everyday life. This episode is powered by navigators church ministries which focuses on helping churches make disciples who can make disciples for more information or to get connected. Check out their website navigators church ministries.org Justin how are you?

Doing all right Tony making it and it's been a long week but we're here. Man that is that is like the season of life that we're into been a long week but we're making it. Yup. I think both of us have been out at the baseball fields with with snow falling this week. So that's spring time and yeah.

Yeah. I saw I saw a meme the other day on Instagram that said mother nature mother nature. You're drunk go home honey. you know th this idea of like Of making it it reminds me of a quote that I've kind of been noodling lately it's from an a movie. The movie is not really important. It's not really a great movie but the quote is excellent.

And the quote is a question I love to ask people when I'm coaching them is the juice worth the squeeze. It's got a little ring to it. It does. It's a vivid imagery. And so you know it's interesting is the juice worth the squeeze it's it's this idea that is the pressure that's being applied to your life.

Worth what's coming out of it. You know if you think about orange juice you get orange juice by squeezing the oranges. You can't get you can't get orange juice just by looking at it or padding the orange you know you've really you got to squeeze you gotta apply some pressure. And so the quote is really important when we think about.

Hey w is the pressure that's being applied to my life worth. The squeeze that's coming out of it is worth you know is worth the juice coming out of it. And it reminded me of a quote that you gave me once about hypo making. yeah. well I it was about weaknesses and I've heard you use the cult quote multiple times.

So I was hoping that we could talk a little bit about this idea today. First of all could do you remember the quote I'm talking about? No. No. So it's this idea that Disciple-making is difficult because it cuts to the core of who we are in a different way. Right. Diabetic jog your memory you know? Yeah.

Yeah. So disciple-making cuts to the very core of all our weaknesses. Yes. Yes. I desperately want to talk about this because I love disciple-making. And I know you love disciple-making yet. We both agree that it messes us up as hans. Yeah. It's a. It seems to be designed by God to run right through the valley of the core of our weaknesses because in order to do it well we have to not only be honest about the things we struggle with but we have to be willing to face them and to work on them.

And so that's one of the things that I've learned over 20 plus years of making disciples. and I was actually sharing this morning. When my kids were going through the life of Jesus and in a harmony sort of way so chronological way. And we're at this place and it's actually in Luke six where he is in the temple in the in the synagogue and was teaching.

And this is right at the time. the heat starting to be turned up on him from the Pharisees and some others. So the Pharisees are trying to trap him and they're like Hey Jesus is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath? And he's like well you tell me is it is it lawful to do good or to do evil on the Sabbath?

And and then you know there was this man in the story that has a shriveled hand and they basically to set up right? So there's Jesus in the temple. There's the guy that needs healing. There's the Pharisees saying Hey is it legal to heal anybody? And things like well if. One of your animals fell into a pit would you like would you help him out?

And and so he he poses that question and then the key and where I want to highlight in this story for us today is the key is he looks at that guy and then he says stretch out your hand. Now we've most of us on this podcast have heard this story before. And let me ask this question. what do you think happened when Jesus said stretch out your hand?

He put his handout. Which one? I mean that's a good question. I mean I know the scripture so I know he puts his shriveled handout. Right? Like that's kind of the idea but. Right. So he'd never thought about it. He stretches out his shriveled hand. Now he didn't have to he had another hand to choose from that he could have stretched out.

He could have put out his other. And now it would have been a different story. Had he done that? But what Jesus asked him to do was put out in front of everyone the weakness that he had and then he took that weakness and then he made it whole right. And I think in disciple-making there is a it causes us to stretch out the weakness that we have.

And so we've talked on this podcast before about being relational or being intentional. I mean my my weakness one of my big weaknesses in life that I've worked on for 20 plus years now is is being more relational having a a sense in being capable of loving people in ways that they're capable of experiencing it as love.

and. That's been really hard for me now you've talked about Tony how one of your weaknesses intentionality. Sure. Right. And how that has really been stretching for you in the in the process of becoming a disciple maker. Right. So I think that that reminded me this morning of just what what you brought up today is that right.

it runs right through the core of our weakness because if if we're going to be for somebody who Jesus is to us then it requires us to stretch through our weaknesses. And that's really hard too. Yeah. W what's super interesting about this idea is that you know we all have physical weaknesses. I'm probably never going to make it to the NBA.

I'm just not I'm I'm actually let's be honest. I'm never going to make it over six feet tall. which you know is what it is but there's also like there's the physical kingdom of God which we're trying to build. But it parallels with the spiritual kingdom of God. I had somebody on the reclamation podcast recently pastor Randy Frazy and he talked about how there are always two battles happening at the same time.

There's the physical battle the flesh and blood. Right which is your skin and it's your you know it's actually getting up and opening up the Bible in the morning and doing your quiet time but then there's also the spiritual battle. That's kind of raging in the background on it on a completely different plane or parallel that that is happening.

And I think. As we talk about this we have to realize that cutting to the core of our weaknesses is part of how God wants to prepare us for the spiritual battle we have to to to rise above the flesh and blood and lean in to this spiritual battle. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah absolutely. That if if we are going to be a part of building someone and making them into a disciple and a disciple maker that we're we're entering into all that right.

It's a it's a flesh and blood sort of battle but there's spiritual things that are happening. There's forces of darkness. It really don't want it to happen. And so it is. It's serious business right? It's not just some you know hobby that we're engaging in like oh db de db. Let's see see how this goes today.

No we had to be prepared for what it is that God's called us into when we think about becoming a mature disciple and helping others to do the same. Yeah. And I think there's a kind of a a role here that is dependence around the holy shit. You know and and when anytime we talk about spiritual warfare spiritual battle rising above the flesh we need to include the holy spirit because Jesus calls the holy spirit the great advocate the holy Spirit's advocating for us to do more than what we could ever do on our own.

And in order to get there we have to surrender it and multiply. You know and and kind of pray and trust God to multiply what we've surrendered for something eternal very similar to the the story that you shared from Luke six right? We've got to show our weaknesses and know that God is going to use this.

And I'm reminded in my life And you know I've I've shared in multiple places about my addictive personality right. And that's just a part of who I am and I really have to struggle with it. And and I'll never forget the day that I realized that drinking in my case Control over me. And and I was with a group of of lady leaders in the church and and we were doing recovery ministry.

I was assigned to be the recovery pastor. I was new to it. I didn't really know. And we're sitting around a group. Yeah. One of the guys in the groups named Steve H and he looked at me and he said Tony is it okay if we have a tough conversation with you? And I was like no but no I said of course of course Steve.

And he goes Hey listen we've seen your social media stuff. And it looks like you're pretty open about the fact that you enjoy the adult beverage. On occasion. And I was like yeah you know I grew up I grew up Catholic and that was just part of our family culture a big families and cocktails and all of these things.

And you know which is fine. There's no judgment in that. And this is what he said next. He goes we want you to consider not drinking while you serve as the pastor of the recovery community of this church. Hm. And man I'll tell you that. I I got really mad. I didn't get mad externally but internally I was like how dare they ask me to stop drinking?

Right? And sometimes this happens to me where I'll think about something and then I'll begin to really stew on it. And so by the time I had gotten home that night I had stewed on the idea that an inanimate object AKA alcohol in this case could make me so mad in my ability to reach someone for the gospel.

Yeah right. And so for me it it kind of like this idea like Hey I want to reach the next person. I want to make disciples. I want to do the work that God has called me to and I'm going to have to really deal with this. What turned out to be a really big coping mechanism in my life an unhealthy coping mechanism.

And I had to surrender it to the cross and the hopes that God would use it. Thank God he has. Yeah. Right. But but the battle doesn't end there for me at least it it you know it's still a process of figuring out what coping mechanisms I'm using. I don't drink anymore but I it's it's still that's kind of the process you know th does that resonate with you on a deep level?

Yeah I think what I what I hear you saying is that that's an instance where you know in order to invest in these guys yeah. You had to deal with something in your own life. Right. And that there's a there's a holiness element to making disciples and to being a disciple. Right. And so to the degree that we are that we are dealing with our stuff we're able to help other people deal with their stuff.

Right. If we're not dealing with our own then we're not going to help other people. Right. Not effectively. We're gonna we're gonna put out our healthy hand and say look at all of this you know look at all these good things I have instead of putting out well you know I'm sure you didn't share this part of the story but I'm curious.

As you dealt with that. And did that was were there conversations that you had with those same guys? I mean it it developed a sense of intimacy as they walked me through the process and in a in a really like deep personal loving And Jesus' style. You know what I mean? Like it had to have felt like when Jesus was with the 12 disciples because now we're doing life together through something that's really challenging tough vulnerable all the all the feelings you know?

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I love that because that is. You know a lot of people think well in order to become a disciple maker I have to have all my stuff together. Right. I have to have a perfect life et cetera. And that is a barrier for a lot of people because they know that's not them. And it's not me. It's not you.

But when we see that no even our weaknesses God uses for his glory and for the growth of others and for our growth. But we have to be willing to put it out there. Right. We have to be willing to. to communicate about it in the context of relationships that have trust and you know that it's appropriate.

And so you know that's a perfect example of that. I think for me some of the experiences that come to my mind are just you know a hardness of heart that I've had in the past of you know guys who haven't. done the things that I think they need to do. And it's a cycling relationship or they've been a little bit flaky and coming or not.

And instead of looking at you know what are the things that I'm doing in the relationship that might be causing them to not want to return? I would castigate them or blame them talk about them to other people that I was in ministry with. not in a gossipy sorta way but in a frustrated sort of way.

and it wasn't until I really began to look at and some people that were close to me began to say well you know Justin why do you think that keeps happening? Well I don't people aren't really that interested in disciple-making a I wonder processor. Right? I love. But the reality was they made we've been very interested in growing as a disciple.

They just weren't interested in in me helping them do that because my relational skills at the time were not at a place where they could receive love for me even though I was trying in some some way. To show that I cared for them. I was missing a lot. And so you know I still look back on some of those instances and you know there's a there's a sense of regret and.

It sometimes is shameful. Like not that it needs to be. Cause I know that the cross covers that and it was never a malicious or intentional thing on my end but you know it's been hard because if I wasn't making disciples so I would have not had to deal with those things at the depth that I've had to deal with them for the duration that I've had to deal with them you know over two decades now But I think that's part of why Jesus offers us this opportunity to make disciples is because it's not only for other people it's for us because as we're making disciples we are growing as disciples.

Yeah. Right. And so we have to runs right through the core of our weaknesses if we're going to do it well. And so you know you mentioned that the at the top toning the juice is worth the squeeze. And for me that's one of the biggest reasons why disciple-making is worth the squeeze because it's if I'm doing it well then I'm becoming more like Christ.

Right. Yeah. And you know church word that we use for that is sanctification. But ultimately what we're talking about is transformation right? How can I be more like Christ every day in everything I do I once had a a church member. We were talking about reaching the lost and this didn't come from a very like it didn't come from a negative place.

It was more inquisitive than and the church member said you know Tony what about the people that are here? You know what are we doing for them? And I said you know and I really believe this that if if ultimately we want to grow the people that are here teach them how to reach the lost because when you've got to go out and teach the faith then it's going to change your faith.

And when you've got to go out and make disciples it's going to change the way that you are a disciple. Right. Yeah completely completely. And the other thing I think is the opportunity that that we have in disciple-making and we kind of touched on this earlier with the spiritual battle and the physical battle and you know God has really given us an opportunity to meaningfully impact and build an eternal kingdom.

And I can't think of anything that that I could give myself to on the earth. That would be more significant than that. Right. I mean if you think of who was the most famous person on earth and 758. I don't know. I don't know either. I think it is I there might be a listener out there that knows but most of us don't have that at the top of our minds.

Right. We don't even know the most famous person in the world. You know a couple of hundred years later nobody even knows who they are. And so if we're giving ourselves to fame or fortune or pleasure all that's temporal it's fleeting. But when we give ourselves to building an eternal kingdom that will never end it will never go away.

And that the part that we have in in building it is something. You know scripture talks about we will have treasures in heaven for the things that we do here on earth. And so you know that's another really motivating thing for me that makes a disciple-making worth the trouble. Yeah. There's that last line in Matthew 28?

he says I the very last line is and surely I'll be with you to the very end of the age right? Like this this is part of that promise. This is part of that instruction and. You found an incredible quote from Ian bounds? I w I was hoping you'd share it with us. Yeah. Yeah. inbound's a guy who was writing in the 18 hundreds said this.

He said the church is looking for better methods. God is looking for better men. What the church needs today is not more machinery or better not new organizations or more and novel methods but men whom the holy spirit can use men of prayer men mighty in prayer. He does not anoint plans but men men of prayer.

And of course men is the mankind right? Not just guys but all of us who are choosing to do this. And I love this quote because it is that's what that's who God uses. He uses people. To accomplish his purposes. And so it's not about the method. It's not about it's about are we going to trust him that he's going to use us?

And it's really that vision right? The vision that God can use me he's called me to this. And he will he will use me as I'm faithful that will help carry us through whatever struggles we come across. So as we wrap up today's dialogue I want to give you a takeaway. That's super practical. It's to develop a vision that carries you through your weakness.

Develop a vision that carries you through your weakness and the action step kind of follows that right? Take the next step whatever the next step might be in developing your vision. Maybe it's writing it down. Maybe it's memorizing a verse. Maybe it's sharing it with someone. And if you don't have anybody to share it with email us right email Justin or myself we're more than happy to take a look at your vision around disciple-making and what we can do to help with.

Guys I'm so thankful that you joined us today. I'm so thankful that we get to be on this journey of disciple-making together. I'm so excited about what God is doing. I know more pastors today that are engaged in the disciple-making process than ever before. And I think a lot of it has to do with so many of us knowing this is the next step for what God has called us.

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