Everybody welcome back to the practitioners podcast. We're applying Jesus' style. Disciple-making in everyday life. Special bonus episode for you today, we are going to take some audio that we used on the reclamation podcast and share it with you today. It's a lot about Justin's story about his heart for disciple-making.

It was so good that we couldn't pass it up as always do me a favor and leave a rating review, share the episode, let people about this brand new tool to help resource and disciple the local church to make disciples as always. This episode is powered by navigators church ministries, where their goal is to equip the local church every day in disciple-making.

Thank you so much and enjoy the episode. Hey everybody. Welcome to the reclamation podcast. I'm Tony. I'm excited to bring you a conversation with my friend of the last three years. Justin Gravitt. Justin is father to four. He is works for navigator church ministries and has been all around the world.

Teaching people about what it means to disciple others. Justin, how the heck are you? Hey doing well, doing well. Good to be here with you. Thank you so much to tell us, uh, everybody a little bit about yourself. Uh, I mean, I kinda, I kinda outlined some things stole my thunder. I stole your thunder. Well, I mean, you can tell everybody how old your kids are or you've got some young kids.

Yeah. So the three girls, nine, six, and four, and my son is two years old. So that's a lot of kids under the age of 10. It's a lot. Yeah. Our lives are full and fun. And how long have you been married? Married? 13 years now. 13 years to my wife, Kristen. And we met, um, and a castle actually. Oh, okay. I'll bite. Tell me more about the castle.

So we both worked for the Navy and we worked, um, we met actually in the dining room, in the castle, which is out in Colorado Springs, which is Glen Erie and borders garden of the gods out there if you've ever been. And, uh, yeah. So that's yeah, in our story. Oh, that's awesome. Now for somebody who doesn't know what the navigators.

Um, kind of paint a picture. What is navigators? Where'd it come from? How did you get connected to it? Yep. So the navigators is an international interdenominational Christian organization. We're focused on making disciples who make other disciples, and it was founded in 1933 by a guy named Dawson Trotman who's known kind of today as the father of modern day disciple-making.

And this movement that now is, uh, seems to be gaining ground in the local churches. Uh, the idea of making disciples who make disciples, uh, he started that in many ways. Obviously it was Jesus' idea originally, but yeah, so he, uh, he just started influencing man as they came off the ships out in California and the Navy and discipling them.

And the first guy, he discipled brought a guy back to him and said, Hey Dawson, when you do with him, what you've been doing. And Dawson said, no, I won't. And he said, if I've helped you, then you help him. And so that's kind of the vision that he had. And, and from that, it kind of blossomed out into a movement, uh, that became the navigators.

It's incredible. And how did you get connected with them? So I first met the navigators when I was, uh, into my sophomore year at Miami university and a girl that I was crushing on in English class invited me to, it's always a girl. It is right. They draw you in. Um, and so she invited me to go to NAB night and I'd never heard of it.

I didn't know anything about it, but she was inviting me. And so I was there, you know, um, and I was just blown away by this group of people that were seem to be really genuine in their pursuit of God. And, and at that time in my life, that was something I don't feel like I had experienced in the same way.

So, uh, from there, I, I started to get involved mostly my junior year, because that was the last month of my sophomore year. Got involved from there. And, uh, yeah, the rest is history. What were some of the first things that you did to grow your personal relationship with God? Because what I hear you saying is that prior to that moment, you hadn't really been there before, but what were some of the things that the navigators and really the person who is discipling, you were teaching you that you had just thought, uh, never really done or thought about prior to that moment?

Yeah, so I grew up going to church being forced to go to church and so different periods of my childhood. I really resisted that a lot. Um, but it was just part of our family culture that we went, went off to college and, you know, just kind of lived typical college life until I went to that, that group that one night and, um, junior year I began to get involved and went to Bible study.

I still remember the first night of Bible study with those guys. It was about 10 of us, junior, junior guys. Um, and. At the beginning, they went around and shared a verse that they'd memorized. And I was, I mean, they didn't make me do it cause it was my first time I was amazed it guys, my age were actually memorizing the Bible and I'd never been around that before.

And then our Bible state discussion started and these guys were, you know, in the midst of sharing, they would say things like, well, yeah, it reminds me of Philippians one six, and then they would quote the verse. And that was just kind of how the discussion worked and I was blown away and I realized, boy, these guys know God and know the Bible in a way that I don't.

And I really wanted that. And so I kept going to Bible study, but then, um, one of the older guys, a guy named Greg, uh, started to disciple me. And that was my first experience with discipling, uh, being discipled. And it radically changed my life, uh, because it went from me hearing what I should do. To somebody showing me how to do it.

And so that made all the difference for me. So it was things like, well, Justin, you know, do you ever read the Bible and be like, oh, you know, sometimes I read it a little bit, open it up. Has anybody taught you? Like how to read it a bit? Like, no. Well, what about prayer? Do you ever pray? We got to pray. Has anybody taught you?

Like how, how to pray? Like what do you do? How do you do that? And so he just got in the weeds with me about how to walk with God and how to do those disciplines, uh, that oftentimes we hear about in church, but nobody, uh, we don't often have the opportunity to have someone come alongside us and, and show us how, right at this point you're still junior, senior.

Yeah. Junior. And he discipled me junior and senior year. So it was those sayings. He taught me how to memorize scripture. And however, the first scripture that you ever memorized. Yeah, I was second Corinthians five 17. All right. We hit it, man. You hit it. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.

The old has gone the newest come. That's awesome. Yeah. And so junior, senior year, and probably for the next eight, 10 years after that, I memorize two verses a week and reviewed them. And, you know, at one point a guy I was discipling said, man, Justin seems like, you know, the whole Bible, how many verses do you know?

And I said, I have no idea how many verses I know, but you know, what's more important to me is how many verses know me. And so, you know, God's not impressed by how many verses we can spit back out. Um, but what he wants is our hearts. And so that's really the goal of all those disciplines is, you know, surrendering and aligning our hearts towards, towards God and what he's calling us to.

How much do you think of your faith? Has been formed by disciplines because I do think that in the church world today, especially in the attractional church model that we see so often, like, you know, I'm, I'm just going to church to go and listen to the preacher or whatever. Uh, we, we don't talk about disciplines much.

We make the bar to entry so low that disciplines of kinda are, if they're in the language, they're very later. How much of your faith do you think has been formed by discipline? A lot. I mean, it's a hard question how much, but, uh, discipline is a dirty word in our culture, right? Um, especially in church world where some church cultures are really sensitive to legalism and you know, all that sort of thing.

But to me, discipline has never been about earning my salvation. Uh, it's just been more about how do I know God better and how to be, how do I become more like him. I'm a big believer in drip by drip or brick by brick. And so, you know, if we just do a little bit consistently, uh, after a while, it adds up to a lot, and that's what I view disciplines as is, you know, especially scripture memory.

If I can memorize a verse a week or a verse a month, man, over 10 years, that's going to add up to a lot and it's going to help me to know God and it's going to give both me and the holy spirit, a language to communicate, um, you know, between me and God and God in me. Uh, so yeah, I think a lot, I think that, uh, disciplines are important.

I believe that, um, you know, the gospel is not opposed to striving. It's supposed to earning. And, um, tell me more about that. We flush that out a little bit. Yeah. So, you know, going back to legalism idea that a lot of times people are afraid to. Really pursue God hard or to, or to dive deep into disciplines, especially on those days where maybe you don't feel like doing it.

Um, but having the capacity to say, you know, I don't feel like it, but I'm going to do it anyway. I think really honors God. Um, and you know, I think legalism happens when we're trying to earn something from God or to impress him, but we see striving language all through scripture may, especially when you look at Paul and think about the things that, that he did and talked about running the race, you know, it doesn't run aimlessly.

He ran, he ran in such a way as to get the prize, you know, first Corinthians 15, 10, he talks about, he worked harder than all of them. I mean, that was his perspective. That from, from a human perspective, he worked his tail off. Uh, to know God and to serve him, but even in that verse for 15, 10, he backs off.

And he says, but not I, but the grace of God that was in me. So I really believe in that dual focus of, you know, from a human perspective, I want to work my tail off and strive to honor and to be like him. But even that, you know, I have to step back and acknowledge even that desire and that ability isn't from me, it's from what God's doing in me.

So do you think, um, do you think that the kind of the resurgence in disciple-making is it's kind of become kind of, uh, culturally trendy lately? Is, is that, uh, do you think that's a result of people wanting to do harder things? Like in a lot of ways it's reminded me of these like Spartan races where people are getting out of this.

Uh, everything is handed to me, kind of comfort zone to earning something or striving for something to you to use that word. I really liked the way you say that. Uh, do you think that there it's a, it's a cultural shift or do you think it's, um, something different? I think there's a lot of factors. I think that that's one of them.

I think our culture and where we're going, uh, the middle ground is being lost. And so for better or worse that, you know, if, if somebody is going to follow Jesus is becoming less and less popular culturally, uh, today the statistic that I've most recently heard is that those under 30 or six times more likely to be atheist or agnostic than they are to be a Christ follower.

Um, and so that's just the trend of our culture. So as a result, I think that disciple-making, uh, is gaining momentum in the church out of necessity because churches are seeing that we can't do business as usual anymore because the attractional model is, uh, is losing ground and it's not having the effectiveness that it wants did.

And so I think, you know, the, the ideas of disciple-making and having relationship with another and influencing each other with our very lives, uh, and, and less with the information education model and more with, you know, a life on life, relational model. So that's incredible to think about it. And I love what you have to say about culture.

And I think you have an interesting perspective on culture, partly because part of your ministry took you out of the United States to a completely different culture to make disciples in Atlanta. You were not familiar with, tell us a bit about that and kind of how that journey unfolded from the nap side, and then what you had to convince your wife to do in order to go over there with you.

Yeah. So, um, my wife and I served as missionaries in Thailand for four years consecutively. We were in, in and out for 15 years prior to that, um, you know, our, our story together, my wife and I is such that we, we both felt called to missions, uh, when we were dating. And so there wasn't a ton of convincing on that side.

Um, but being in Thailand was really eye-opening in a lot of ways because it's a completely different culture. Um, you know, the opposite of the things that we think here are, what they think they're, uh, an example would be, uh, authority. So in America, uh, we, we will obey authority, but we don't respect. And so, you know, to flesh that out, we, uh, will say bad things about our leaders.

You know, you can get on any news site and here, I mean, Twitter was basically invented for that, right? Yes. And so, but we'll do what we're supposed to do. We'll fall in line and we'll do it because we don't want the consequence. Now Thailand's opposite. Thailand respects their leaders, but they won't obey him.

And so, you know, a couple of examples where I saw this is I was teaching at a government elementary school and, uh, was in a meeting with the principal and the grade grade level teachers. And the principal was clearly saying how I wanted the testing done. So we were not to be in our own rooms for testing.

We were to switch rooms and Proctor different classroom. And so he goes away and as soon as he left. Uh, the other teachers said, no, we're not doing that. And I said, I said, wait a say, he just said we were supposed to do that. Yeah. But we're not doing it. And, um, I said, oh, okay. And so another example over there is, you know, they would set up these police roadblocks and check for helmets.

You know, you had to have a helmet if you're driving or riding on a motor bike, you had a registration, all that sort of thing. Well, since they would block the road off, if, if there was any line at all, uh, often people would stop and just do a U-turn. And I witnessed once where a motorbike went up, there was no line, went up, stopped about 10 feet from the policemen, looked at the policemen and the, the guy didn't have a helmet on just turned around and went the other way.

In America that would never work. The policemen laughed. Right. That's just some at all, didn't chase him. And that's just the way culture is one of a hundred examples. I could give you of how different the cultures are. Um, but because of that, it helped me to see things from a different perspective. And so even reentering into America, um, you know, I was hit in the face by our cultural, um, norms of we value productivity.

So highly, I remember one article. I didn't read it, but I saw the headline early on when I was back. And the headline was, uh, five ways to brush your teeth more effect more efficiently. There there's five more ways. Apparently, apparently. Okay. I didn't read it, but I was just like, man, how deep does this go?

Right. This idea that, yeah, we should do things as productively and as efficiently as we can. And that stood out to me. So it's productivity and fear. So the other way that that article could have been phrased and it would have fit very well in our culture is, you know, five ways you need to be brushing your teeth so they don't read right out.

Right. And so we, we pull those two levers often in our culture and in Thailand, we don't, we don't have those levers. The levers are much more communal and relational. And I think as I think about disciple-making in the church, those deeply influenced the way that I, that I view both of those things that we, that we can stand to become and really should become a lot more relational, uh, in the ways that we practice our faith.

But give me a picture of what you and your wife had to do for your own faith while you're in Thailand. I mean, how, how were you managing faith and life in it? I mean, you were there as missionaries. You weren't there, you were, you were there teaching. English and a government school. And so that requires some real intentional behaviors I would imagine.

Yup. Yup, absolutely. So we were there as missionaries, those of us, the, the Thai people that we were relating with didn't know we were missionaries and there's cultural reasons for that, that would have put up huge, uh, walls between us. Um, so our faith life was deeply integrated with every other aspect of our life.

So, you know, I taught at a school, we were doing pioneering work, uh, uh, as far as, uh, evangelism goes. And so we were sharing our faith naturally and within the context of relationships. So we were very good friends with our neighbors, um, to the point, this was another cultural difference. They there's no knocking really in Thailand, if they want to come see you, they just kind of feel really uncomfortable.

It did for us too. So they just walk into your house. Hey, you know, we're here. And, uh, so you guys were walking around the house naked or anything. No. People were just walking all the time. Nobody wants to see that. No, it really frightens me. Yes. Yes. So, um, so we were in deep friendship with them and, you know, I was missing lots of things about home and, you know, I just shared that.

And one of the things that I think we get hung up on Americas, we compartmentalize our life and we compartmentalize our faith. And really, I think the, the gospel moves best in relationships and it moves best when, uh, we integrate, we integrate everything. And so in the same way that I was sharing with my friend, his name was song as is, uh, my best friend over there.

And I'd share with him how I was missing certain foods over here in the same way I would share with him things that I'd gotten out of scripture that day. And he's a Buddhist and continues to be a Buddhist, but, uh, we were friends, right. And so part of being friends with me. Means that you get to hear about my faith life.

And I don't do that, uh, as a way to manipulate somebody. I do that just in sharing who I am. That's authentic. Absolutely. Yeah. And oftentimes I could tell he wasn't that interested in what I was sharing, but I didn't mind because there were a lot of times that he was sharing things with me that I wasn't that interested in.

Did he share a lot about his faith as well? He didn't, um, he shared as much as he had to share, but it wasn't very important to him. And so, you know, it was, it was an open topic and actually his daughter ended up becoming a Christ follower. And as that was happening, it was an open topic for us together.

And so, you know, I would, as his daughter who was 15 at the time would come to me with questions about Jesus and about the things she was seeing in our family's life, I would take them to song. And I would say, Hey, I just wanted to let you know, you know, your daughter's asking this. Um, you know, is there anything you'd want me to tell her?

And, um, you know, for me that was a way of honoring him and honoring our friendship. And, um, my goal was not to, uh, tear apart a family, but to unite a family around Christ. And so I wouldn't just interested in his daughter following Christ. I was interested in all of them. And so he said to me, he said, well, just tell her to talk to me about it.

And I said, okay, I'll definitely do that. Um, but you know, if she, if she continues to ask me, are you fine? If I just share with her about what I know of Jesus. And he said, yeah, that'd be great. And so that's what happened. And eventually she came to faith and, uh, shared and continues to share with her parents the difference that that makes for her.

So, and you guys, you guys didn't have like a Sunday morning experience over there. Yeah. I mean, that's not. Yeah. Right. So yeah, so our. Um, was fueled by our disciplines, right. So it was by getting into the word and praying and relating with one another and sharing with our friends, you know, the things that we were reading and reading scripture with our friends, you know, is that those opportunities came.

Um, and then, uh, I had accountability and stuff through friends that I had back in the states that I would Skype with and, you know, be in, um, intentional, uh, relationships with them in those ways. But yeah, we didn't have a, there just wasn't, uh, that opportunity for us there. And then you guys had kids while you were over there.

So we moved when our oldest daughter was eight months old and then our six year old, current six year old was born over there. Um, and then our four year old was born just after we got back. So, and what was it like coming back? I mean, you'd already kind of mentioned the culture shock once before, but you're back here in the United States.

Uh, you guys moved to Beavercreek, Ohio, which is. Um, it's not Thailand. What was that like for you? It was a big shift. I mean, a lot of ways. It's just some of the stuff I mentioned that what we miss the most. So the relational aspect of the culture. So in Thailand, you had to work to be alone in America, you have to work to be with people.

Um, what do you think that difference does to community and culture? Like, I, I mean, that's a really profound statement. Yeah. I think here, most people don't know how to love one another because we're so used to being isolated, I'm an introvert. Um, and so I'm comfortable being alone. Um, and you know, I realized that if I'm going to fulfill what God's asked me to do, I have to be with people.

And, you know, I work against myself in some ways, because of my design, you know, where I'd rather be alone. Sometimes I have to get out, but even extroverts I observed. Um, you know, they can be with people, but a lot of times they don't know how to dwell with people. And so one of the things that we have concentrated on since moving back is being present on purpose in our neighborhood.

And so figuring out ways to, um, to just be, and to build relationships with our neighbors who aren't used to that and to, um, you know, initiate and to say no to a lot of opportunities that we could do that would have us, um, you know, really busy and running around a lot. We say no to a lot of those opportunities so that we can be present on purpose, uh, for our neighbors and build those relationships, um, so that we can love people deeply the way that, you know, I feel like the gospel assets too.

You know, if, uh, if you were with somebody who had never heard that concept before present on purpose, I'm assuming like a lot of our listeners, what would be one thing that you would tell people to do. Kind of right off the bat, like what's the one practical tip if you want to be present on purpose. So the priority, right?

So the priority, when we make that a priority, we accept things that come with it. So one of the things that comes with it is boredom, uh, early on. Uh, so when we moved into our neighborhood, we didn't know anybody. Right. And so we wanted to have relationships, but, uh, it doesn't work in our culture just to, you know, pitch a bunch of lawn chairs in the front yard and, uh, cost people as they walked by.

Right. So we have to find culturally relevant ways to get in people's lives. And so, you know, at the front end, there's a lot of time where it feels like you're not doing anything, but your conversations, you know, with neighbors that maybe last 15 or 20 minutes, a couple of times a week, um, we'll expand if you had the time for them too.

But a lot of times in our culture. We fill our time because we've, we want to be productive. Right. All right. Deep value. And so if we're just not having much to do, then there's a, all these opportunities around us. So things to do well, a lot of times we'll fill our time at the front end. And then when those relationships start to develop and we have, um, more, uh, capacity or not, that's not the word more connection with our neighbors so that we can do that anymore.

Um, we, we ourselves don't have time anymore because we have this thing on Monday night and the say on Tuesday night, this thing on Wednesday night, Thursday nights are only night to breeze. So we just kind of huddled down and, you know, watch a show or whatever, all of it's understandable, but you know, the decisions that we make early on are going to impact us later on.

And so being present on purpose, we make that a priority. We have to accept some of those things early on is that, you know, we might feel. But that boredom necessity is the mother of invention. So if we want relationships and we're sitting around bored and we don't have relationships, it's going to get us out on a walk in our neighborhood.

And as we're walking and we see somebody out that's two streets over, we're more likely to go up and talk to that person as they're working in a garage instead of just walking by. And those were the sorts of things that we did to begin developing those relationships. And, uh, it wasn't easy. Um, but it was, uh, how many years have you been back there?

It'll be five years in April. Cool. Do you feel like, do you feel like you're at a place with the neighborhood where you want to be yet or still a work in progress? I mean, our neighbors randomly stopping by, I mean, not just walking in like they did in Thailand obviously, but right. Yes. Um, so it's always in process, but we have made tremendous progress in that.

Uh, we had neighbors that do stop. Um, those that we're closest with, we're now in a place with them where we're their first call when they're going through life crisis. Um, and these neighbors are non-believers. And so that is a tremendously encouraging to us because a lot of times in church world, we talk about reaching people that don't know Christ, but we don't have relationships with them, or we have the relationship.

So we think we're friends with them, but they don't consider us friends of theirs. And so one of the questions I'll ask pastors a lot is, you know, when's the last time a non-Christian invited you to do something, uh, cause we can't manipulate that. Right. We can manipulate when I asked somebody that I might've known to go do something, but really when those invitations start coming both ways, then we know that we have a friend and we're trusted.

Um, so we're seeing that in our neighborhood and uh, we're seeing progress, uh, spiritually speaking with our neighbors. Um, and that's yeah. Your listeners don't know me, but if they did, they would know that it's not a result of me having a magnetic personality, it's intentionality and loving people. And the more we do that people respond because we're in a culture where relationships are, uh, rare in terms of with neighbors and with people that, um, just want to love us and just want to care about us.

And I think that's what God's calling us, calling all of us to do. I love that. And, and one of the things that I've learned from you over the years, G w we've been meeting together now for, uh, three, almost four years. And one of the things I've really learned and absorbed from your philosophy is ministry has very little to do with the church ministry is just a way of life.

And the church is a part of that in a communal sense, but, um, frontline ministry really happens in your neighborhood. How did you come to that? Um, did, did somebody give you that or is that a navigator thing or is that just a gospel thing that you've pulled out? Because I mean, I do see it in scripture everywhere, right?

Yeah. So those who discipled me really helped me to see that and help me to grow those skills. Um, and that's, you know, most of it, I think that for me, and for most pastors or vocational Christian workers, uh, we have an advantage in the neighborhood and a disadvantage at the workplace. And so our advantage in the neighborhood is those initial conversations.

We can say, um, you know, I work I'm a pastor or, you know, I work with the navigators and I help train pastors and church leaders on how to make disciples and cultures of disciple-making. Well, so I can say that conversation one, because they're going to ask me what I do. Right? Of course. And after they asked me that it's an easy, inappropriate, next question to say, you know, what's your spiritual background.

And now we are already talking about spiritual things and I can show them, this is a safe topic. We can talk about it, but an engineer in the neighborhood, when they get asked, what do you do? And they say, well, I'm an engineer. It's not an appropriate next question to say, what's your spiritual background?

I mean, you could, yeah, it's a little awkward. It can be a little awkward. Right? And so we have an advantage in the neighborhood, but our disadvantages in the workplace, because in the workplace, we are working with people who already know Christ and the engineer is likely working around most people who don't yet know him.

And so for most, um, for most Christian workers, the best place to have a ministry among those that don't yet know Christ is in the neighborhood or in the community. You know, around sports or, you know, different things I know you're involved with. Um, but for those of us, for those others who aren't vocational Christian workers, uh, engineers, teachers, et cetera, a lot of their best ministry happens in the workplace.

So that's just, I mean, a combination of being in the word and helping other guys, helping me to see that. I love it. I love it. And, and you're now taking a lot of this message to pastors kind of throughout the community all over the Miami valley and Southwest Ohio. Really. Um, how, how would you describe what it is you do?

Um, you do for, for people like me, pastors and churches throughout. I mean, you've got a kind of unique view on the church and ministry. Yeah. Um, so when I'm asked what I do, uh, I have lots of different answers. The one I like the best right now is I say I help pastors and church leaders. Um, make people who look, act and smell more like Jesus and less like religious consumers and people kind of turn their head and say, oh, and especially the smell part, right?

Yeah. That one gets him. Uh, but so that in a nutshell, that's the end result that we're going after is, you know, most people go to church and many people have gone to church for decades. And yet the way they act, the way they live, their lives is no different or not noticeably different from those who never go to church.

And that's not what Christ has called us to be or do. And so I help pastors figure out, well, how do we do that? Um, one of the, one of my first questions with pastors traditionally is I'll ask them, what do you, what do you feel like the purpose of the churches? And they, they will answer something around disciple-making.

They might not use that language, but they'll say, you know, and to make disciples. Um, people know Christ, you know, all those sorts of things. And so I'll clarify. So, so to make the set yeah, yeah. Make disciples. Great. So I'll say, well, how's it going for you and your church? And a lot of times I'll just get, you know, a head shaking, you know, um, sometimes they'll say, you know, it's really not going well, the best I've ever heard so far is, you know, it's going okay.

Um, but then I'll ask, I'll say, well, tell me about the training that you've had and making disciples, because I'm talking to pastors and, and helping pastors that run the range of currently going to seminary all the way to they have their PhD. And one guy now teaches at a seminary that I'm working with.

I'll say, tell me about the training you've had in seminary about how to make this. And he said, I didn't have any training. I said, well, you must have had a class or something. I mean, you have your PhD or you got your master's of divinity three years of seminary training. The main goal of the church is to make disciples.

You must have had one class. And I say, no. And then I, then I empathize. So I say, let me get this straight. So your main job is to make disciples and you haven't had any training on how to. And they say, yeah. And so that's an incredibly hard place to be. Most of the pastors I work with realize that, uh, preaching sermons and running classes is not, uh, they're not getting the results that they want.

They want to see life transformation. They want to see disciples made. And so they are frustrated. They don't know what to do. They haven't been trained how to do it, and they don't know anyone else that can help them. And so, because of the opportunity that God has given me early in my life of that first guy, great coming alongside and discipling me and setting me on a course, really to, um, to invest my life into others and to learn a lot about how do I help somebody grow spiritually from place where they're very young and, uh, all the way to where they can make disciples of others.

Uh, I've learned a lot about it. And so I get to come alongside pastors and just help. You know, figure out, well, what is this disciple-making thing? How do I do it in a way that's life on life and not an educational model? And so, you know, the seminary model often is, you know, if you know the right things and you'll do the right things.

In other words, education leads to transformation. And the result is that's not the case. If that was the case, we'd all have six pack abs and million dollar bank accounts, come on, that's what I'm missing. Right? We all read all those books. We all know so much more than what we're applying. And so, you know, the, the knowledge and the education is not what drives transformation.

And what I believe in, uh, found is that it's application, that drives transformation application. That is, that is rooted in a relationship, uh, with another. And so when I look at juice with life, that is what he did. And so what I do with pastors has helped them. Uh, develop convictions around who Jesus was, what he did and how do we do that with others?

Uh, a friend of mine put it like this. He said, you know, most churches separate the teachings of Jesus from the methods of Jesus. And then they're surprised when they don't get the results of Jesus. Say that one more time, because it's so good. Say it one more time. So we believe that it, we can separate the teachings of Jesus from the methods of Jesus and still get the results of Jesus.

And we can't, those things have to be in line together. And so we can't just teach about the moral teachings that Jesus had and try to emulate those and think that somehow that's going to get the results of, you know, men who are passionately committed to the same mission that Jesus had and really changed the world.

Right. But we have to look and understand it. How did you. Help those men move from, you know, guys who are ordinary everyday guys, right? Fishermen tax collector, right? Doctor. I mean, these were average everyday people that he took and train them and lived with them and loved them in such a way that their entire mission and life purpose changed so that they went off and impacted others and eventually changed the world.

And the reason you and me are sitting here talking about it is because Jesus invested in those 12 and 11 of them went on and did the same with others. And that chain went all the way down to us. So I help pastors get that. Um, well, and I'll be the first one to say that, I mean, drastically changed the way I look at disciple-making.

When, when you and I first met, I thought I knew some things about discipleship. He did. Yeah, no. I mean, I was doing discipleship and big and big churches, you know, and I was the small groups guy and, and, um, and I was at this place personally, where I was so frustrated because small groups, um, were coming sadly disappointing me in the fact that they weren't leading to life change.

And there were two things that you showed me, um, through scripture and through, through a lot of time. And we, I think we can say this even a couple of fights. Yeah. Uh, that, that were game changers for me. And one is that, um, the word intentional, intentional relationships lead to more intentional relationships, this idea about going in with a plan and an agenda.

I growing edge still in my life that I'm working with. Being more intentional. And the second is, is that, uh, community for community's sake is not the same as community for disciple-making sake. Like it's, uh, small groups are not the end zone. They're, they're, uh, they're like the 20 yard line and getting someone to a place where they can make a disciple who can make a disciple and those intentional relationships that's cooking with gas.

So, so thank you for that. It's been fun. Yeah. It's I mean, it's been a heck of a journey w what's been working with me and other pastors, what's been kind of the hardest part for you in this, uh, other than the fact that, uh, we're ridiculously pastors are ridiculously hard and nailed down on schedules and we don't like them.

You told what to do. And we talk too much like right now. Yeah. I think so each pastors, his own guy. Right. And so part of what I love about what I do. Is I have to figure out, all right, who is the pastor? How has he wired up? What is he naturally strong? And what is he naturally weekend? And then I have to help come alongside and figure out, okay, how do we help this person grow?

And their, their picture of what it means to be a disciple and to make disciples from where they are to, um, the method really, and the methods that Jesus employed. Um, I talk a lot when I work with pastors about the intentional relational scale and most of us, um, you know, it's not a one-to-one correlation, but mostly introverts are naturally intentional.

And so that means, you know, they're going to plan, they're going to think through how they do things, even in relationships, we'll do that. Relation relational people are normally your extroverts. So they're not always, but they're the opposite, right? So they're the ones that. I have no trouble sitting now with people, but making a plan is a struggle.

And so, you know, I have to help identify where is this pastor? How do I help them grow towards the middle of that? And to me, one of the beautiful things about disciple-making is it requires us to be mature, to be excellent added. We don't have to be mature to start. Anyone can start, it's like playing a piano, right.

We can sit down a piano and produce notes. That sound good. No, the right notes. Sure. Right. But so it's easy to start, but if we want to be excellent at it and see, uh, disciples that are go off and reproduce for the rest of their lives, you know, we have to continue to grow and, and becoming excellent and skilled in it.

And so with pastors, some of the challenges, um, with the relational guys, it's helping them figure out some intentional tools that they can re they can use in relation in their discipling relationships. For the intentional guys, it's helping them raise the profile and value of life on life patterns with people.

And ETQ so just understanding the emotional side of people's lives and how do we motivate people? Um, that goes beyond just hammering them with facts and logic. Um, and so those are some of the biggest ones, CQ emotional intelligence kind of, right. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So it it's intriguing to me. Do you find that most passengers are introverts or extroverts or there's a really good balance there?

Yeah. I mean my experience, so this is a limited sample, right. But, um, a lot of the younger guys are more related. A lot of the older guys I work with seem to be more intentional. Now that could be just a sample bias that you know, has emerged. But yeah, but I mean, since I've known you, you've worked with prov, I mean over 20 pastors, easy.

Yeah. I mean, I'm currently coaching or discipling 20 pastors across 12, 12 churches. Um, so you know, over the past five years, uh, I haven't kept the numbers, but yeah, we're somewhere between that. And 50 probably as far as that's your town, pastors come and go. Just like any, any other relationship that we're in.

I mean, it really, I appreciate the model that you do with, with us, with me, because it feels like you're, you're modeling, this is this, uh, that's the very nature of what we're talking about, where model and the idea. So you work with pastors, you get to see the ugly side of the church, which we know is, is exists.

No, one's going to be naive about that. Um, you're, you're a serving. Ministry in your community. How, how do you and your wife and your kids, how are you guys keeping your faith alive in that process? Because it, it feels like it could really get beat down pretty easily by the, I mean, the church can be a really mean place sometimes.

yeah. So our life mean there's a lot of things that we're involved in, um, you know, across a lot of spaces in different spheres, but really I view my life as I do one thing and that's make disciples. And so some of the ways that I do that are in the neighborhood with non-believers or I do it with pastors and church leaders.

I'm an interpreter for the Thai community in Dayton. Um, but in the midst of all that, we're just making disciples. My wife, uh, helps out in some ways with churches, uh, and ladies, but she has a couple of spheres that she's cultivated on her own. So she had. Uh, a woman's group that she works with. Um, she started a, um, well, they call it a friendship society with Turkish women.

Then it just kind of fell on her. I don't have any, you know, um, why not, why not? Uh, for our kids, one of the things that we do and we do several things really, but we have a family mission statement that keeps us focused. And would you, would you mind sharing it? Sure. Yeah. It's a bit of a mouthful go for it.

Um, our mission is to understand is to, I'm sorry, I'm going to start again. Please do. Okay. Our mission is to love God and others. Like Jesus did to understand who we are, both our strengths and our shortcomings to seek freedom within and peace without to faithfully follow the road, laid out for us with compassionate eyes and grateful hearts and to sacrifice for the benefit of others.

And so, you know, all of our kids who are. Over two can quote that for you. Um, and some of the intentional things that, that we do with them, I do a Bible study with, uh, the three girls. So the nine, six and four year old every morning. Um, so this year, how do you guys pick what you're studying? I've well, we mix it up.

So sometimes I write them. Uh, so this year it's been stuff that I've written. So we've, we've looked at, uh, three things this year, who is God, who is man, as in, who is, who are humans. Um, and then currently we're looking at who is Jesus and what did he do? What an incredible gift. Yeah. And so last year we did it.

Um, another study, it was blanking out on the cold case. Christianity, I think it was chance it was a for kids version. So we read through that and talked about it. Um, so we do that in the mornings. Uh, at dinner times we have different days where we'll do things, intention. Um, so if we have lots to talk about, then a lot of times we won't get to it, but you know, like Mondays our mission statement Mondays.

And so we'll have one, one of them share the mission statement. And then we just talk about how did we live that out, uh, on that day. And it could be any part of it. And so it was just time of sharing, uh, Tuesdays or Thai Tuesdays. So I tried to get them, you know, my, my oldest, you could speak time. We left Thailand, um, that is quickly been eroding.

So we did Thai Tuesdays for a while where I'd only speak tied to them. And they got really, really frustrated. Yeah. So I would say, Hey, I'm going to speak the language. I want you speak back whatever you want, but they were still really, really frustrated. So I've pulled back on that some, but, uh, what we do on Thai Tuesdays is now we share a story from Tyler.

Um, you know, from our time there, from our experience there, and they enjoy hearing about that, uh, Wednesdays, wacky Wednesday. So we just sit in a different seat than we normally sit at the table. Just do whatever. Yeah. Thursday, we don't have anything. Friday is families, family story Friday. And so we'll just share a story, my wife and I just from our past, and if they have any stories they want to share, then they do that.

Um, but the big goal with the kids is just to integrate faith in life. And so we don't, we don't go share our faith. We don't go sh go serve somewhere. Um, we just do that in the midst of our life. And then we talk about it. And the other thing we talk a lot with the kids about is what they're seeing, because we really believe that if Jesus is who he says he is, then they should be able to see a difference between our lives and those that don't follow Christ.

And the difference that goes beyond, you know, Do this, don't do that, but a difference in the quality of who we are and the quality of, of the very fabric of our lives. And so we try to encourage the kids to just observe, um, what are you seeing? What are you experiencing when you went over to that house for a birthday party?

You know, what'd you see, you know, and sometimes it's great stuff and we encourage that. Sometimes it's stuff that they're like, oh, I wasn't sure about that. And we try to dive into that. Where do you think that comes from? And, and so, you know, the big thing for us is trying to integrate executing the culture really, as you're living it, you're, you're pulling out the what the true SAR.

Yes, exactly. That's an incredible gift for your, your kids. And, um, I think was it hard to start, or just a matter of just deciding that you're gonna. Well, I'm really intentional. I do know that I do know that about you, so it wasn't hard to start. It was just a matter of is your wife as intentional. Uh, she's not quite as, but she is, you know, actually intentional as well.

She puts up with your intentionality. Oh yeah. We're a good match in that. Um, but yeah, and the thing is, uh, we're disciplined, but we're not regimented. Sure. And so we don't have to do any of these things and if it, if it just feels like none of us are in the mood for it, if you want to call it out while you can just, yeah, we just don't, you know, so that's, that's awesome.

Now I've also learned a lot about quiet time from you. I know you're very passionate about that and I would be remiss if I didn't ask you to tell the story about the rule that you have for yourself when it comes to quiet time in the morning. Um, and, and kind of how you got into that. I think it goes back to college.

If I recall, right. It does. Yeah. And I don't, I don't live by that rule anymore, but I'll share the story that you remember. Um, so when I was first getting started and disciplines, I was having a hard time developing consistency and in spending time with God every day, and the guy was discipling me, was trying to help me with that and I'd set a goal.

And then the next week I'd come and I hadn't done the goal, or maybe I had, you know, cause I was trying to do it first thing in the morning, but I was falling asleep. You know, I was trying to do it until it wasn't really fruitful. Um, but more of the time it was a matter of priority. I just wasn't doing it.

So he shared with me a verse job, 2312, which says I have not departed from the commands of his lips. I have treasured the words of his mouth more than my daily bread. And he asked me, he said, you know, What do you see in this first? And I just shared some stuff. And then he said, would you say that you treasure the words of his mouth more than your daily bread?

And you know, it's one of those, you know, the right answer, right. He got to right from the heart he did, but we had the relationship. Yeah. Where, you know, it didn't, it wasn't offensive to me. Wasn't overstepping the relationship. Um, I said, no, you know, I want to, and he said, well, you should pray about that.

And so I prayed about it. And one of the things that God put on my heart to do was not to, not to eat until I'd had time with God. And so I made that commitment in my life. You know, I was a senior in college at that time. And for about three years, I lived by that, that I would not eat breakfast. So I missed breakfast, some, um, miss lunch here and there.

Um, but I never missed it. I didn't miss dinner. My stomach forced me. Yeah. Um, but that really helped me. Right. It helped me to develop that discipline. And what I learned from it, and the reason I moved away from it was I realized, you know, because I had, uh, seen and experienced how good it was that that habit was ingrained in me after those three years of living by that, that I didn't need to do that anymore.

Um, and so, yeah, that, that really helped me. It's not something that, you know, everybody has to do or anything like that, but it's something right. Simple mental game that you can play with yourself. Uh, I, I've never had a problem. I'm a morning guy, so I've never really had a problem getting up and getting after the word, uh, the last couple of years.

But, um, I often use this rule, um, and guys that I'm discipling because, uh, they struggle getting in the habit of it. And so I, I'm a big fan of playing mind games with yourself in order to be successful. And I think that this is a, a great, a great mind games. Yeah. It certainly helped me. Cause I, I do want to treasure God's words for me more than.

Food. Yeah. Right. Um, but sometimes I need, I need help in doing that. And so just setting that anchor in my life really helped me. That's good. So one of the questions I love to ask all my guests, um, if you could go back to that junior in college, if you could go back in time and give yourself one piece of advice, looking back on everywhere you've been and everything you've done, uh, what would it be?

Hmm. Yeah. So I think for me, um, it would, I would want to share about how, how much relationships matter and that people are the program. Uh, you know, as a naturally intentional person, I believed, I believe this from, I don't know, up until I was 23 years old. That the better. I knew God and the better I knew the Bible, the more impactful my ministry would be.

Um, out of college, I started with the navigators and we were planting a campus ministry and I was on a team of four, another guy, and two other two ladies, as I lived with this guy who was from Georgia, his name was drew. Um, we were just total opposites. I mean, he was captain people person. Um, yeah. I remember going to the grocery store with him, this in Amarillo, Texas.

First time we went to the groceries, we were sharing an apartment, went to the grocery. I go through the checkout line, you know, it's normal. Like every other time I'd ever been through, he goes through, he smiles at the lady, you know, says, hello, she's offering him these free things. And you know, he's getting all sorts of stuff.

And I'm like looking at him like, what is this what happened? Right. Yeah. Well, that was just true. Um, that's how he, uh, engaged people. And that's the response that he often got. He would often, you know, look at me and say, man, I wish I knew the Bible the way that you do. And I trained him on some things on campus on how to do some things.

Cause he hadn't had the opportunities I'd had in college. And um, and yet, uh, after about a month he had lots of guys just stopping over, Hey, it's drew on the street. I had a couple of guys that if I chased them down, they would hang out and we'd do something, but they weren't coming to me one day. Uh, one of these guys that I chased down, you know, shows up at my door and I'm super excited.

Right. So finally arrived. Right. This guy, Bobby shows up and we small talk a little bit and then he's kind of looking around. He's like, Hey

yeah. So yeah. The way you said that explains it all. Yeah. Yeah, that was that. Um, and now that was really hard for me to move through, into process. I couldn't say, well, maybe drew knows the Bible better than me. Maybe that's the problem here because he was telling me, right. Yeah, I wish I knew. And so that was really a paradigm shift for me that it's not just about how well, you know, God, or know the Bible, you need both, you need relational skills and you need to know the word and you know who God is and what he's doing in your life.

And I only had half of that. And, um, and so it, it set me on a course that I'm honestly, I'm still on today. I made a lot of improvement and growth, but I still, you know, am always working to grow and my people skills and relational skills. And if I could have told that to myself at 19, I could have gotten started four years earlier and, and, uh, you know, save myself some of the, the struggle that I went through.

Uh, certainly in that story that I just told that that was really, you know, it was hurtful in a lot of ways. I felt like a failure and I felt like. Man is disciple-making I even do this effectively. Um, and that's one of the passions I have today is helping people see that it doesn't matter whether you're an introvert and extrovert disciple-making is for you and each design offers certain things that the other doesn't we can learn from one another.

And one thing that I've really appreciated about our friendship is just, you know, you're one of those naturally relational guys. And so, you know, I just enjoyed, uh, watching you and asking you questions and getting those insights that, you know, aren't always apparent to me about relational situations. So, well, it's, it's definitely been a joy for me to learn from you as well.

Um, and I bet other people will want to learn from you. And so where would you send, um, my friends who want to follow up with what Justin you blog on a pretty regular basis. Yep. Every other week I put out a piece on disciple-making and it's really good stuff. I shared a lot for it. If you follow me on social media, you probably see me.

Um, w how do they, how do they subscribe to your blog if they want to connect with you? Yep. So my website is Justin gravitt.com. Um, and then the blogs right there. So there's a way to S to sign up for the blog, right? When you're on the website. And now lots of pastors probably listening all over the country.

Uh, if they're like, I need what Justin's got. Um, what, what would you tell them to do so connect with me, probably be the easiest way I can connect you through. So I'm part of the national leadership for navigator church ministries. Uh, we have 135 staff, uh, scattered around the country. And so connect with me.

You can engage me through the blog. I'm also on Facebook and I Twitter a bit. I'm not that great at it. Um, my Twitter handles geograph it. Um, so, uh, yeah, that would probably be the best way, uh, any way we can help and assist. I know that lots of pastors out there are trying to figure out. Well, what now, if this attractional model is not going to work, then what do we do?

And if we're not seeing disciples made, um, and sometimes we don't even understand what that means. Yeah. You know, I've had pastors say to me, you know, I have no trouble making disciples. The trouble I have is getting them to reproduce. And I don't say this unless I know them really well. But when I hear that, it's similar to somebody saying to me, you know, I have no trouble making chairs.

The problem is when someone sits on them, they break. Right. And so come on, that'll preach. Right? So you're not making disciples unless your disciples are making disciples. Yeah. And so if, if pastors out there want help and need help, uh, let me know. And I will do everything in my power to connect you with somebody that can help you, uh, because help is available and it's out there.

Um, and the other thing I would say is that for those who are listening, who are not passing. Disciple-making is for you. It's for everyone, right? Oh man. That's such an important message. And you know, it's not gift to the spirit. It's every person who follows Christ is called to be a disciple of mine. Yeah.

There's no gift of disciple-making right. It does not exist. You will never find it in the scriptures. There's no gift of disciple-making there's a call and all of us are called to disciple and the it's really an opportunity. And so, you know, when I first was engaged with the vision, disciple-making my life was radically changed because church changed from something that was something I had to do and had to go to, and really, and didn't have anything, any way for me to contribute in a significant way, other than volunteering, which is important.

Leading Sunday school, but a lot of those things, I didn't feel like engaged the deepest parts of me. Um, it was more of a plug and play situation. Uh, but disciple-making, it requires everything you have and only you can disciple those that God's calling you to disciple because we're the only ones with the set of relationships that we have.

Right. And so it is a deeply fulfilling thing. And so whether you're a pastor, whether you're a lay person, um, you know, if you're not engaged in making disciples and you're missing out, you're missing out, Hey, you're, you're also doing some speaking coming up at, uh, discipleship.org. I mean, you're going to lead a couple of workshops there.

Um, it's one of the premier disciple making events in the country. Right? Tell us about that. Yeah. So disciple, discipleship.org is a website and it's a collaborative effort. Bobby Harrington leads it down a national. And 20 disciple-making organizations, 20 plus come together each year in Nashville. And normally it's October, November this year, it's November, um, for a two day disciple-making forum.

And so we'll be down there again, I'll be leading a set of workshops and, um, yeah, we just encourage you, whether you're a pastor or not, if you want to just learn more about it, uh, they have a blog as well. Um, you know, and they put out a few podcasts, uh, not to detract from your audience. Uh, the more the merrier, listen, it's all for the kingdom.

Amen. Uh, so yeah, you could check that out. Uh, it's a great opportunity and, and that's the other thing, you know, we have 135 staff, but I'm connected to the leaders of those 20 organizations. Nick could also help. So there's lots of opportunities out there to get to know Justin and his ministry and what God's called them to.

And, and maybe even in that process here a little bit more about what God's calling you to. So, uh, I just want to thank you Justin for the time today. Uh, thanks for sharing your heart and being vulnerable. And I, I'm excited to continue to see how God is gonna use you in the world. Amen. Thank you. It's been fun.

Wow. That was a tremendous conversation. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. I've listened to that episode several times now and just, it just continually impacts me on the discipline and the life change that Justin has gone through with his family. Um, would you do me a favor? Would you hook up with Justin on his, on his blog, his Instagram or his Twitter account?

And just say, thanks. Thanks for being so vulnerable and sharing is hard on this conversation. Um, you can also find a link to in, through my social media, which is at TW Milt, Twitter, Instagram, and on Facebook. We'd love to connect with you. You can always also visit our website@thereclamationpodcastdotcomortwmilt.com T w M I L T as always.

You know, we couldn't do this without you. So thank you so much. The best compliment you can give us is to share the podcast with a friend. Maybe tell somebody who's never listened to it before. Email them, text them. You can find us on all the podcast providers. Grateful to be in community with you. Hey, next episode, uh, super special friend of mine, Derek Latimer.

Who's actually a pastured turned atheist. We have, uh, just a very unique conversation. If you want to make sure that you don't miss now's the time to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, have a great day. Everybody look forward to talking to you. Like what you heard, please take a minute to Ray in Sharon.

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