14. Practitioner's Podcast: Should Pastors Keep Their Distance From People at Church?
I think the thing about an action step is is that you know if you're evaluating your inner circle then what you ultimately decide is who who's around you and why are they there? Kind of thing. I think a lot of pastors that I talk to don't have anyone around them so they tend to get.
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Happy new year Justin. Hey happy new year Tony 2022 men. I never thought we'd get past 2020. Sometimes I still think it is 2020 but I love it. And I'm glad to be here. A random question of the week. Tell me what you do with. The resolution debate. Are you in for resolutions? Are you out? Are you doing a bunch of new years?
Yeah I do not do resolutions. I've done them in the past and most of the time they didn't work. So what I do now is more of a looking back and then thinking about what do I want 20 22 to look like? Right. So thinking about a goal or two and you know it's different from a resolution cause I don't have to keep it the whole way but I'm moving towards.
I love that. I think for me I do like the urine review. And so I'm oftentimes I'll write out kind of like man some of the things that went well some of the things that I'd like to improve on and see if you know similar to you see if there's some disciplines that I need to change moving into the new year.
To help me achieve new results that sort of thing. It's it goes back to one of my favorite sentences. If you aren't dedicated to your disciplines you'll be destroyed by your distractions. So I love it on. or an upward. And so speaking of onward and upward let's talk a little about today's episode.
We're talking about pastors moving into deep relationship with people in the church right? Should pastors keep their distance from people in the church? And now Justin I know that you work with pastors all over the country. I'm curious right off the bat. what is your initial observation of the landscape of this question?
Would most pastors say yes or would most pastors say. I think most most pastors would say yes and most pastors are taught that in seminary that they need to to maintain some sort of emotional relational distance between them and the people in their church. which you know now that I've been doing this awhile it doesn't surprise me.
But initially that really really surprised me. And because I don't see that anywhere. Oh that's interesting. So do you think that most pastors are avoiding it because of why? Yeah I think they think it's wisdom right. To avoid it. And they think it's wisdom because keeping some emotional distance provides some protection for the pastor.
not only emotionally and relationally but also just in the church as as they lead. they don't want to be looked at like they're playing favorites. they don't want to be looked at like there are some. Get more of their attention and others that don't. And so I think that's a big part of the whole dynamic there of you know how close should a pastor get to the people that he's leading and loving.
How how do you handle this Tony? So what what's your take on it? You've been through seminary. If you've got your M div was there any conversation around this when you were in school? and what's been your take as you've interacted with. Well it's interesting right? Because I would say that in seminary we didn't talk about it much but a lot of the pastors that mentored me as I was entering my lead pastor role warned me about getting too close to people.
They specifically said Hey you don't need to be friends with the people that you're trying to lead. And when we got into this dialogue one of the things that became really clear is that. The reason that that was the case is because eventually you're going to disappoint those people or eventually they're going to want to put you in a particular role or position.
And now all of a sudden you can't be friend and pastor. And I think for me like the the really hard part about it is is You know a pastor is a servant leader right? Like Jesus modeled that we want to wash our our people's feet. But also one of the real issues in all of this is you know when you disappoint someone what what does that do to the relationship?
And it makes it it makes it a little bit of a a different dilemma you know in terms of of how that works. Sure. Yeah I guess my pushback would be. So if we if we disappoint anyone relationally whether it's a neighbor a coworker a family member that has potentially negative ramifications potentially You know the outcome of disappointing others or not living up to their expectations of you can not only destroy that relationship but that can destroy relationships around it too.
And so I can see that you know as far as a pastor wanting to prevent that in a church context on the one hand but on the other hand I think about what does it mean to really love people and what does it mean to disciple them through those sorts of relational challenges? and I think that's kind of the tension that we're dealing with here right.
Is there are so many pastors and churches that that have had those sorts of situations and they didn't go well. And so they want to avoid them all together. Is that is that kinda your take on it too? Yeah I think so. I also think that I also think that sometimes in this dilemma what ends up happening is is Most of the people in our churches don't have a great dialogue around what what good confrontation looks like you know like we haven't done we haven't done that part of of Christian walk well or or Christian community.
Well and so what ends up happening is is so what ends up happening is like They get mad at the pasture. They never talked to us about it or they never talk to me about it in my particular case. And then all of a sudden they go back to play people that I'm also serving who I may be not as close with.
And now all of a sudden they're sharing their disgruntledness with the entire flock. And what ends up happening is like a cancer. And it's really hard. Because one of the things that I really don't want to do is disappoint people. And yet what ends up happening? Anytime you become friends with me at some point in our relationship I'm going to disappoint you.
And you know as as now this becomes a therapy session for me one of the things I've realized is that man I just don't want to be someone's total embodiment of the Of Jesus or following Jesus or the church you know like like that's a really tough spot. It's a really tough spot. Yeah yeah. Yeah.
Talk more about that. What do you mean by somebody's? Totally total embodiment of Jesus are following Jesus. Well a lot of times people and the research supports this people go to churches and stay at churches because of the pastor. and when someone comes to church because of the pastor then what ends up happening is they often leave the church because of the pastor.
And so man I don't want to be the person. who causes someone to leave the church because we were friends and then I didn't live up to their expectations. And this happened to me recently at at restoration and and nobody's did this intentionally but there was a friend who thought that I should have given them better pastoral care meeting.
I should have been more attentive to their needs while they were in the the Getting some tasks and all these things. I didn't feel like that was expressed. They didn't they didn't say Hey we could really use some extra prayer over here or we could really use a visit but they thought that I should have just known to visit them.
And what ends up happening is they're really frustrated with me and I don't even know what I did wrong. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And so a lot of times people that have that experience with a pastor I mean that person sounds like communicated that with you in some way but a lot of times that's not even done right.
People would just get hurt and then they'll leave and go somewhere else. And then they'll get hurt again and leave and go somewhere else. Or maybe they won't maybe they'll find a pastor who's who's keeping their distance and becoming what I would really consider a really professionalized relationship with their people.
So they are going to do the care. They're going to write the cards or have their staff write cards. They're going to shake hands in the lobby on the way in and the way out. and it's a it's a form of relationship but there's there's no real depth of relationship there. And when pastors in leave a church or move around then the relationship.
Just almost transfer right? Because it's really easy for the next pastor to come in and play that role in somebody's life. But if you have a deep relationship with somebody where you're actually loving them and they're loving you you you're known by them. They're known by you. Those sorts of relationships don't really transfer like.
Yeah that's right. And I think one of the things that I've wrestled with as I've made disciples who can make disciples is that I've gone from playing a role as pastor shepherd to role as spiritual father. And so when you get into that spiritual father role then that's a much different role than pastor shepherd.
Pastor shepherd is a role. You know and and there are some people in the church who you're only ever going to be a pastored shepherd with but to those people that that I'm a spiritual father with. Well we've talked about some of those kind of discussions around disappointment around expectations around what you know what what it is and and that kind of dissipates over time when you can get clear about the expectations.
Right. But but then also as the pastor shepherd I have to deal with my stuff too. You know like my stuff in in relationships my willingness to put myself out there my willingness to be authentic or vulnerable. Does that make sense? Yeah absolutely. So wait what you're saying is in discipling and and having that framework for ministry you are giving yourselves more to some than to others giving yourself more to some than to others just by nature of the fact that there's too many people to give yourself.
Fully to everybody right? It's not how relationships work. but it reminds me Tony of first Thessalonians two eight which Paul is writing to the Thessalonians and and he says to them we loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you. Not only the gospel of God but our lives as well.
Because you had become so dear to us. And so that verse kind of paints a picture of what does it look like to really to love those that you're ministering to well right. They weren't just coming with a message. They were coming with themselves and their whole lives is what they were interesting to. The people that they were ministering to.
And that's what fathers do. Right? Fathers mothers family. We we give ourselves to each other. We don't hold things back for fear of getting hurt or fear of disappointing somebody. And that's a really hard thing to do. And I want to acknowledge that. You know pastors if you're listening church leaders if you're listening we're not suggesting this is an easy thing to do because we do get hurt in relationships.
And Tony one thing I've heard you say before is there's no hurt like church hurt. Right? Right. And so there's just this this messiness that comes sometimes with being in a network of relationships as we're pursuing Jesus together. That we get hurt sometimes. And if we don't properly deal with that hurt kind of what you said Tony then it's really hard to help others who are hurting in the same way.
Yeah I agree with that. And I think that the processing the hurt and this is this is important for any leader not just pastors right? If you're not dealing with the rough edges of your life it will leak out into your life. And so w when we begin to think about what's keeping us from loving people well what's keeping us from living the life that Jesus lived.
Then I think one of the things that we really have to dive into is the pain the anger the resentment the sin issues in our life. Like we're not just talking about like churches don't just fail because of moral failure. They fail because of. relationship failures as well right? Like Hey I don't have an ability to connect with you because I'm protecting myself.
Well what that tells me is that the leader. And I'm very fortunate to have a really good counselor but like the leader isn't doing the work of personal growth to examine man what what is here? What's in my bag of church hurt. Cause you know pastors have a little bit different bag than congruence but what's in my bag of church hurt.
That is keeping me from loving. My people well or even just authentically or wholly I I I don't want to put a connotation. Like there's a a desired like bar that we have to hit. The truth is is we just have to be willing to do it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sitting here thinking too. So most of our audience aren't pastors we know that a fair number of them are but you know it's not just on the pastor right?
It's not just on the pastor to love their people. Well or to to not intentionally keep a distance between them. You know as church leaders everyday folk in the church who are trying to love their pastor and trying to care for them part of what they need to do is to to engage well relationally but also to kind of watch how others are engaging the pastor or what they're saying about the pastor how they are communicating.
Met or unmet expectations with regard to the pastor and helping helping other sissy to Hey this person is just a follower of Jesus. Like we are you know they're they're not the anointed son of God or daughter of God just because they're a pastor any differently than the rest of us. And so we have two.
We as church members have to love the pastor well and help them process through and to shield them sometimes from some of that unmet expectations or unresolved conflict that they find themselves in. Yeah. I think I think it's important for everyone to remember that you have something to add to that pastor's life.
Relationally like you have a gift you have a skill. There are people in the church who've been doing this. If you're a mature believer if you're a mature follower if you're a mature disciple you have something that that pastor needs. Right. And that could be relationally that could be connecting with them.
That could be checking on him or her. but it could also be speaking out the. The unrealistic or unspoken expectations that exist in the church and calling those out right. That that's relationship work that is done when there's there's clear you know roles to be played. So you know there isn't anyone in the church who's exempt from their part in building relationships with the pastor.
Yeah no that's really good. Right? Because what I've seen in this work is that a lot of pastors a lot of churches don't know how to handle conflict well and they tend to just try to avoid it and sweep it under the rug. Right. And the result of that is a set of relationships that don't go deep and they stay on the surface and surface relationships.
Aren't transformative. they're simply not. And so Tony one thing I'm sitting here thinking about is. If you were to talk with a pastor you said yeah you know I hear what you're saying but you know you got to understand that in a church there's different power dynamics at play and I just can't afford the possible risk of disruption.
By getting close to certain people. cause I don't know who those people are necessarily if I'm early on in that call but even if I'm not early on I don't know what people might do down the road. And so how would you communicate to a pastor like that and how would you tie it into disciple-making and how that might impact that pastors discipling?
Th this is what I would say is I would say the fullness of your ministry will never be realized until you make disciples. The way that Jesus. And that Jesus modeled that for us. And so if you want the the maximum reach of your church and of your ministry it will require you to intentionally pour into people for the purposes of spiritual reproduction.
And while it may be there may be bumps along the way. There there will certainly be bruises along the way. The reality is is that the longterm. They you are seeking in your lifelong ministry happens one person at a time. And eventually eventually and this would be the the the encouragement I'd want to give any church leader is that if as you make enough disciples you will eventually have enough people in your church to pull those people into your leadership.
And then you'll be able to create a culture that promotes authentic relationships. And so this is all this is a long game right? It's not a short game it's a long game to make disciples but my biggest. My first year at restoration is not intentionally discipling people. My second biggest regret putting people who weren't discipled on my leadership board.
Huh. So it comes back then to Jesus' style disciple-making which isn't surprising. Right. And that's what we're talking about here. Well that's what we're both passionate about right? That's right. But there's a reason right? Because Jesus set an example for us. Of what it looks like to be a disciple and to make disciples.
And if we want to diverge from his model then we can't expect to have the results that that he had. Right. We can expect only to have lesser results the best way to make disciples who make disciples is to follow the path that Jesus set out for us. And the other thing I heard in in your answer there Tony is is the difference between being a peacekeeper and a piecemeal.
Yep. Right. So if I'm discipling people in the midst of relationship I will have conflict. That's just part of being in relationship with others. And if I'm only trying to keep peace and to avoid that conflict we're not going to grow together in. depth of relationship and we're going to leave a lot of value on the table in terms of becoming like Jesus.
But if we can Wade into that conflict then we can really make peace together. Right? True peace that has moved through some of those relational challenges to misunderstandings disappointments et cetera. and so just those two things I think is super valuable that you brought out there that you know Jesus' style disciple-making and we really have to to lean in to disciple-making to make true peace rather than just keep the appearance of.
Yeah. I love that. I love that. okay. Take away. you take away today. Oh you doing it? Yeah I was doing it. Yeah. I was on it. well it's good. You can't love at a distance. you can't love at a distance and you can't disciple at a distance. You can't love at a distance and you can't disciple at a distance.
And the action step church leaders pastors friends who are listening to. Examine what roadblocks are keeping you from loving others. Well what are the rough edges that you need to examine? What are the spots in your life? What are the spaces that might be holding you back? Examine what roadblocks are keeping you from from loving others?
Well Guys we're so thankful to be on this journey with each and every one of you wishing you the very best of 2022. We know it's going to be a great year. Maybe this is the year that you step out and make Jesus style disciples. And we want to be here along for the ride. Do us a favor hit that subscribe button wherever you listen to podcasts leave a rating or review on iTunes.
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