20. Practitioner's Podcast: The Impact of Consumerism on Discipleship Part 4
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Check out navigators church ministries.org. Good morning Justin. You have morning. Good morning. I am fantastic. It is a beautiful wintery morning here in Ohio and I have the random question of the day. Are you ready? I'm ready for it. What is your favorite thing to do in the snow? Okay. Favorite thing in the snow?
generally try to avoid that but if I'm around mountains I I really enjoy. But that doesn't happen often but that that would be my favorite thing. How about you? yeah I was going to go downhill downhill snow skiing as well. Although I do I want to be the kind of guy that really likes cross country skiing.
Okay. I've never done it. Yeah me neither but it looks like something I would like to do. Okay so goals. So that's yeah. I mean like it feels like it's you know it's supposed to be like one of the best workouts you can have and I love being on skis but yeah that's also you know that would be what I would like to do if we ever get any real cumulation of snow in this year.
Okay. I'll ask you about. I don't think we're going to get a snow so it doesn't matter. Yeah. Let's jump into today's topic because it really it really is about getting what you want when you want it. And right now mother nature is not cooperating with me which makes me grumpy but we're on session.
Number four of consumerism. And specifically we're talking about the demands of consumers. Yes absolutely. So we are like you said on part four if you haven't heard the last few episodes you go back and listen to them. They're building on each other. and I want to start this episode with a quote to kind of push us into where we're going today.
So the quote is a quote from Ramit Sethi and it says this learning is a social shield for smart people. It allows us to seem to be progressive. But learning without application is an excuse not to take action. Simply an endless avoidance of the work in front of us. And I know in my life there are times where I have leaned into learning and not thought about any sort of application or what I want to do in response to what I'm learning and the result is I don't grow.
just the same the same with more information. And we don't want that. Right. We want as we're working through these aspects of consumerism for us to be able to reflect on in what ways has consumerism impacted us? In what ways does it continue to and how can we do something about it? Okay. So today we are looking at the demands of consumers.
So we have already talked about three things satisfaction can be purchased. And so consumers are those who believe that at some level even if they wouldn't necessarily express it they believe. We can purchase satisfaction. The second thing we looked at is that purchasing power is found in systems.
And so consumers join systems and engage in systems in order to get money so that they can buy the things that they need to be satisfied. And then last time we were in this series right before we had that great conversation with Dan Spader we looked at how system participation demands our very identity and it changes us.
so today we're looking at what are the demands of consumers. And I would submit that there are three primary demands of consumers and the first one and and I think they'll resonate with you but the first one is. That I must get what I want now. I must get what I want now and in our culture right now especially moving through COVID.
this is even amped up further because we have been locked down in our houses at various points in the past couple of years. And we have been able to get everything brought to our house pretty quickly. But since time is money in a consumeristic culture then now peace is really important because if time is money I don't want you wasting my time.
And so I need it now and not later. And we see this all over. We see it through door dash. We see it through drive-throughs et cetera et cetera. I must get what I want. Now the second demand of consumers I must get what I want my way. Right. We think of burger king right? I do. And immediately right. Get what you want.
Get it your way. Not somebody else's way your way and satisfaction. If it's for sale. And I had the money to buy it then I need it my way. I don't want it your way or everybody else's way I want it my way. And the anything less than that is disappointing. And it's disappointing as consumers because we are buying our satisfaction.
And so we don't want it with onions when we don't like onions. We want that that opportunity to change that. And then finally then Tony and I can jump into how we're seeing this impact the church and in disciple-making the the final main demand of consumers I must be able to return what I actually don't want.
And try again at your expense. And so if you're anything like me I have Amazon prime so I might order something. I think I want it and I get it and I look at it and it might be exactly what I ordered. There might be no difference between what I saw on the screen and what I'm holding in my hands. But if for whatever reason I decide I don't want it.
My expectation is I should be able to return this and not pay anything for it. because the company must be at fault because they have promised something to me and didn't fulfill it because I don't feel satisfied. And so again those are the three primary demands of consumers. I must get what I want now.
I must get what I want my way and I must be able to return what I actually don't want. And try again at your expense Tony what's your initial response to those and then we can jump into kind of how we've seen it impact the church or maybe our own lives. Well I mean so obviously right. Like I wrestle with demands like everyone else does.
I want good. Purchase power. You know I want to be to be rightly held for what I'm I'm getting and what I'm putting my money towards. And I want to be a good steward and I want all the things but you know one of the things is I heard you were talking about us is the two words I want. Right. And at the heart of at the heart of consumerism and specifically demands and consumerism it's about what I want.
And the reality is is that the gospel compels us to a different way of life. And so I think demands in the church are dangerous. I think I want is dangerous and. This thought process is can be super dangerous when it comes to our faith. And I was you were talking I was reminded of a Dave Ramsey quote.
It says learning to delay pleasure is a sign of maturity adults devise a plan and follow it. Children do what feels good. And I think You know this idea of delayed gratification being able to see the bigger picture all of these things are kind of how we combat this. I want on demand. I must get in my way.
I want to be able to return what I don't want kind of culture that we live in. And I think this is a real issue for the local church. Yeah. Can you read that quote again? Yes adults. Adults learning to delay pleasure is a sign of maturity adults devise a plan and follow it. Children do what feels good.
Okay. Learning to delay is a sign of maturity and that's that's probably the heart of the quote that that Ramsey goes on to teach about quite a bit in his baby steps. If you've ever done any of his stuff it's about like Hey don't don't buy today. What can wait till tomorrow? I like that. I think there's a piece of of truth in that that pushes back consumerism.
But I also hear in it at least for me I think about well there've been a lot of times in my life where I have saved up money to buy something. But at that moment when I am I'm making that purchase I am just as much a consumer as I was. If I had. You know what I mean? And so like I said I think that gets at a piece of it but there's still a piece at least for me that there's something inside that I am trying to satisfy with that purchase that even at that moment even if I've delayed delayed delayed to buy it now that I'm sitting at the precipice of purchase I want it now.
I want it my way and it better satisfy me and it might even heighten my desire. My consumeristic demands because I put so much self-control and discipline into waiting and saving to get that. What do you think that makes a lot of sense right? Like w. Well I think part of what you're saying is maybe the wound that we worth exploring we can all do separately with our therapists is is how are we using our consumer sick demands to fill the voids in our life?
Yeah yeah. You know because when when that consumer sick demand becomes something that you need right. And I'll use quotes around need right. And you wanted a certain way then you're using it almost in a way that. very similar to kind of what an idol would do you know? And and and I've I've preached this sermon before where you know the Israelites didn't you know build the golden calf in the book of Exodus because they they want to despite God they didn't do it because they weren't they weren't mad at God.
They did it because they lost sight of God. Right. And they wanted a God that they could see on demand. And so they built this golden cat. So that they could be like everyone else Hey we're not we don't have a God that's here right now. Meanwhile you know the actual God is talking to their leader on a mountain you know just up the road.
And and yet they created this entire idle out of what they wanted on demand. And the reality is I think I probably do this in my own life. You know I think for me my my schedule is a little bit like. You know I I my schedule can be I can become very demanding of my schedule so Hey if if you're gonna invite me to something and you show up late I might leave.
You know especially if you don't text or something right. Like I want I want it now. I want it my way. And if it doesn't work out I want to return it you know? And it's just a real you know it's cultural sin a little bit in in the sense that when it comes to our faith and it's a it's a cultural identity that most north Americans hold on.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think as a result as disciples a lot of times we approach God in the same way that God is here to give me what I want. I have this problem. I have this sin problem and I've heard God that you're the one that that changes that fixes that for me. So go ahead and fix it. And by the way I want the rest of my life to fall into place too.
And I think a part of why we as Western Christians have trouble with surrender is because we are instead of going to serve we're going to be served. Right. I'm curious Tony as as someone who has pastored in the church for many years how have you seen consumerism in the local church? Well I think one of the one of the pitfalls of what's happened over the last several decades with the attractional church movement is that we've created Sunday morning to be this sort of a cafeteria style smorgasbord of this is what I want to get from a Sunday morning experience.
I want to come in. I want to be greeted with coffee and donuts. I want a message that changes my life but I don't want it to be more than 35 minutes. I want worship. That's good. And but I want it to be indigenous to our community. So we better have really great musicians. I don't want to pay musicians.
I want I want it to be cool but I also want it to be authentic you know? And it's it's just that crazy you know and that's just the modern worship. If you look at traditional worship we do the same thing. I was visiting a church not too long ago. I was filling in there. And one of the things. They they said oh we're really traditional.
And what I realized is what they really meant to say is they're really traditional with their traditional. Not with like the historic faith traditions. They weren't liturgical in the sense of like Orthodox. They didn't have a a high liturgy. What they had was a high value on their traditions which nobody else knew.
Right. As a guest I didn't know those traditions. Right. But it was Hey this is what we do here because this is what we want. This is the way we want. And we're not going to accept anything else regardless of what you who we've asked you to lead us for the Sunday morning. Think. Yeah. So it sounds like what you were getting from them whether they intended it or not was Hey you're here to perform this function and here's how it fits in to what we want.
And we'll we'll make that pretty clear. So you can do. Yeah. And the real tension here right. Is that we hire pastors and I'm not going to stay on the soap box very long but we hire pastors to lead us to places that we've never been but we only want them to do that when it's convenient comfortable and on our schedule.
Yeah. And so like it it's just it's a real tension consumerism in the local church. Is a real tension because it goes back to what the church exists for. So does the church exist to make the person who's paying the bills? Feel good? Does the church exist to go there for and make disciples? I mean obviously you know my feelings on it but it's a real struggle in the church.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think in in personal disciple-making there's a similar tension that can exist. Right. So as a disciple maker I have an idea. Of where we need to go and how I need to help you grow to maturity but you also have ideas of why you're you're in the relationship to begin with. You have some wants some some problems maybe that you're hoping gets solved and there's this real tension well which direction are we going to go?
And what's this going to look like? And often I use the word co-creating right because in in a healthy disciple-making relationship there's give and take. And we're co-creating that relationship in the sense of where we're going and how we're getting there. Because if I'm if I'm discipling and I'm only doing the things that you think we ought to do I'm not really offering you the value or the maturity that you could have or the potential for that.
But on the other hand if I'm only doing what I think then I mean I have to recognize it as a disciple maker. I have some of these consumeristic demands in me that can go the other way too of Hey you need to perform this way. It makes you know whatever it is. And I think there's that similar tension that exists in impersonal disciple.
Yeah I think that one of the things is is we I'm probably just subconsciously put demands those same consumers that demands on a lot of our relationships. Right. And so Hey let's enter into a personal disciple-making relationship. I've got 90 minutes for you every other week. We're going to go through this book.
I need you to get it every week because I really only have nine months to spend with you before. I think you should be ready to go therefore and make disciples yourself. And so so you know it's like Hey I've got 90 minutes every other week. We better make this work. If it doesn't work then if you don't stay on schedule then.
But but the reality is is I've never been in a relationship that that's that's cleaned you know where that has ever worked like that. And I I I know you haven't either because people are just messy and if we really care about the person more than we care about. Our demands everything begins to shift is that yeah absolutely.
You know Tony one of the things that that's coming to my mind consistently in this conversation is the impact of our sin right? And so we have consumerism and it's becoming more and more powerful over the past hundred or so years. But you know for thousands of years we have been selfish and want what we want.
And we want it as soon as we can get it. And we want it our way and even thinking about you know the way that most of us initially approach God it is in that in that format. Right? God I need you to do something for me and you know I'm struck by how deep God's love is for us because even as we approach in that way initially not only is he know that he embraces us in those moments right.
While we were still sinners Christ died for us. but for us as we are processing through consumerism processing through our own sin what what is it for us that we need to be thinking about? What do we need to be Really meditating or praying through so that we can grow more towards maturity.
Not only is in our relationship to consumerism but also our relationship to God. Yeah. I would say this is that the number one thing that we have to consider is what inside of me am I trying to satisfy? What am I trying to fill? What void what. What feeling right? Even if it's that desire to be in control what am I trying to satisfy?
And and how can I surrender that to God? Yeah. That's a deep question. Right? A really good one but one that requires some stillness and some self-awareness and some reflection and probably conversation with others but it's those sorts of. Of questions and wrestling that that are going to lead us somewhere different than where we are we're used to existing.
Right. And so I just love how you put that. Well I think as we begin to wrap up today's episode it kind of it brings us to our takeaway right? Consumers all of us have demands because we believe that something will satisfy us. So. You know consumers have demands because they they believe the product will satisfy.
And your action step this week is to really wrestle with that. Consider the demands that you're making on your faith community. Consider the demands that you're making on your relationships. Right. And ask the question right? What am I trying to satisfy? Right. What am I trying to satisfy? Am I a consumer or am I a stakeholder?
And the local church and to recognize I just want to tag on it. I normally don't at this point but that there's only one thing that satisfies right. And we know that but man I gotta be reminded of that. I had to remind myself of that. And so you know considering all those things but then recognizing the lie of consumerism is that things other than Jesus are going to satisfy the deepest places in our heart and our life.
Guys we're so thankful to be on this journey with you. we're thankful for this really deep dive into consumerism. We hope it's been helpful for you. If it has been helpful do us a favor hit that subscribe button wherever you listen to podcasts leave a rating or review on iTunes or Spotify. And Hey do us a favor maybe share this episode with a friend somebody who you know can hold you accountable in your own consumerism or maybe struggles with.
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