Hey everybody. Welcome back to the practitioners podcast where we're applying Jesus style disciple-making to every day life this episode and all of our episodes are powered by navigators church ministries which focuses on helping churches make disciples can make disciples for more. Checkout navigators church ministries dot or random question for you Justin are you ready?
I'm ready. Let's do it. What is your very first scar that you remember? Scar? S C a R. Oh wow. Scar. That's a good question that I remember just that I have your choice. It's a random question. It doesn't matter. The first one I have. Is on my forehead just to the left of my nose. which is from when I had chicken pox when I was growing up.
Because back in the day we used to have to have chicken pox most of us. Right. Yeah. And then can I if I remember I remember with chickenpox standing there with calamine lotion all over your body like that your mom would go long and like Tabby with a cotton ball calamine lotion do remember. No. Cause I was like under two and I had this too.
I don't remember it. my scar my scar comes from bike riding and somehow or another my left knee got wrapped up on the backside of the left tire and and it it went all the way down my knee. A solid couple of inches. It has since been replaced in an ACL scar. So it's that poor knees seen a lot of seen a lot of action over the years.
Seen a lot of action I guess. So I guess so well Tony let's talk today about something that bothers me a lot. you know and disciple-making is something I strive to do well. And a lot of the aspects of how I disciple and how I help others. And disciple-making I feel really good about. But this one in particular is one that that I don't think I do well at this point in my life.
And sometimes it keeps me up at night wishing or trying to figure out a way to be more effective at it. and what what I'm talking about is what I call the with him principle. And so it's this idea that we should spend time with the people that we're discipling outside of or in addition to you know maybe the nor normal rhythm that you guys have already set up in discipling.
Yeah. And when you say with him you mean with him or with her you know with the person that you're pouring into it's that idea that you're going to catch them in. In the margins of life. Right. And the stuff like like Hey you want to go to a movie or Hey you want to go shoot some hoops or Hey somebody should give singles tickets.
Right? Yeah. Or I'm on my way to to run errands. You want to come along? You know? I mean it doesn't have to be exciting stuff. Right. Especially if it's. If you're proximate geographically as well like in the same neighborhood or whatever lots of things open up. Right. But yeah I struggle with that at this point but I know the importance of it.
And why don't we why don't we just start there like the importance of the within principle where do you see that happening? in scripture in Jesus's ministry et cetera? Well I mean I I think when you know when we think about the way Jesus did life with the disciples it's really easy to see that it's.
the majority of the time that they spent together was actually with him time. Right. It's the walking time. I often wondered when I read the scriptures especially the gospels like w what did Jesus say when he's just walking from one town to the next that that didn't get recorded you know? Yeah. I don't dunno.
I I'm reminded of mark three 14 and you know it says he appointed the 12 designating them apostles. They that they might be with him and to send them out to preach you know that idea that when Jesus called somebody he didn't just call them to a job or to a ministry or to a task. He called them into his life.
And I think that that's probably the best embodiment of the within principle that we have. Yeah. And that's that's the verse. We get that from right. Is that the with him he called them to be with him. And just like you said like that is the first call of a disciple is to be with Jesus. Right. That he's more interested in our relationship with him than he is in any task or mission that we might move into with him.
but just the being with him Yeah. Another verse for me that comes to mind is out of Paul's ministry. First Thessalonians two eight and Paul says to the Thessalonians he's reminding them. We loved you so much that we're delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well because you had become so dear to us.
And so it's that idea right? Of. You know it's not just information transfer. Disciple-making that's not what it is you know at its heart it is a relationship and a specific kind of relationship that doesn't just share the religious parts of our lives. Or you know in this verse it's not only the gospel of God but our whole lives our lives as well.
We shared. And why do we do it? You know I love how Paul says it because the Thessaloniki and to become so deeply. to Paul. So you know in my life you know is early forties mid forties guy got four kids at home 11 and under it's a full time. Apply it every time you say that it gives me the chills.
Yeah. It's a full season. Right. Take care for everybody. And and as I was thinking about this episode and preparing for it I thought you know what. Maybe I should give myself a little more grace because what I what I think I am doing okay at is making sure I get with him time with my family with each individual my family and to care for them.
Well and that's you know a top priority for me. even above those outside the home that I'm discipling which they also see that too. But you know guys that I disciple outside my family it's really difficult and rare to be honest that we both have opening in our schedule where we go and do something just the two of us to do it.
You know what I mean? And that's really hard for me. What does it look like for you as you're discipling right now? It's tough. I mean w what you're saying resonates with me because I similar season right. I would say this sports is probably the one thing that. I use as a with him kind of tool. And if there's a guy that I'm discipling who who loves sports that's not uncommon to be like Hey do you know?
Like I'll try to knock two birds out with one stone. Hey I'm going to go watch the high school football game. Cause my son plays high school football. Do you want to roll with me over here? Right. And and that that has some advantages to it in terms of like trying to figure out the time. when I'm doing it well it happens naturally and I'm intentional about it but it happens naturally and it's a natural fit.
There are obviously there are seasons where it's less natural it's less of a fit. I'm more stressed out right? Like in those well in those seasons I'm just not very much fun to be around anyway. So yeah. I'll tell you that there was a season of my life when the with him time that somebody used for me was pretty transformative.
And some of you who have listened to tell us yeah some of you have listened before know that I was in Minnesota for a year and while I was there I lived at a residence Inn which sounds amazing. And it honestly it was kind of amazing. It was like free breakfast every day and you know dinners four nights a week.
But the weekends were always super lonely. And so the guy who was discipling me Charles Causey he would invite me over to his house for dinner on the weekends. And then he would invite me to stay the nights and sleep in his guest room. And then we I would play board games with him and his family. And it it was it was it was a beautiful representation of.
Of like Hey in a lot of ways he was making me what Paul says is this you know like a spiritual son in the faith. And he brought me into the family in such a way that actually this year both of his daughters got married and it felt like I was watching one of my siblings get married and it you know it was it was the with him time that really that really made the difference in those relationships because that's how I got to know his kids and his wife.
And you know that whole thing. W what about you? Was there a season in your life that it worked out pretty well? Yeah. Before we get there though I just want to reflect like that. That is living out that verse right? That he shared not only religious things with you but he opened up his whole life. And through that there was a Dyrness and a closeness that emerged.
And as you're sharing that it reminded me of you know the navigators and their history. they used to have what's called NAB homes. And you know if you were being trained by somebody they would invite you into the home to live with you. and there are still some pockets of the navigators where this happens.
I wasn't trained that way and have never done that before. Although we thought about it and I don't know as an introvert it just feels like it would be a lot. So I already feel like I'm stretched too thin relationally and especially getting time with the people in my household. Add another one. But what I've heard from that is that it allowed the person who is being discipled to see.
What family looks like how to parent how to be a good spouse how to love your wife well or love your husband. Well you know all those sorts of things that I think it's extremely valuable and it gets a little closer to Jesus style. Disciple-making right. Because it is it majors on that with him. and that's something that as I've been able to experience it and do it more and more it adds a whole lot of power to what I'm trying to do in disciple-making cause the relationship Titans and it allows for conversations that are difficult to become much easier but it also allows for a an affinity a love to develop that is deeper.
then really develops when we're not able to do that. Well so for me in my life wins it worked well. I mean I had guys that as they discipled me they'd invite me over say we're building a deck to help or you know run errands or to go here. Their. at first it felt a little weird to me cause I didn't really get what was happening or why.
but I just tried to roll with it in my non-relational self. Like all right. Well I do appreciate this guy and over time it felt more natural right? probably the go ahead. Nah I just I think it's interesting that the natural the natural inclination of like That it wasn't natural to have somebody invite you over.
And so as they broke down those barriers it became more comfortable. That's that's just a probably a good difference between the introverts and the extroverts. Yes exactly. And the important. Pursuing right. Somebody who's less relational that they might not see the value right away. But over time you know you like you said you can break the barrier down.
when we ministered overseas we were able to do this pretty well because the people that we were ministering to and discipling lived right across the street and culturally. It was accepted and normal to just walk across the street and they would just walk in our house. Oh there you go. And it was pretty yeah it was really personal and intense for a while because we didn't know to expect that.
And and they just walk in Hey how's it going? And we were feeling like our barriers were kind of traverse in some way but we would regularly go places run errands with them. Go to lunch with them mean just go over and sit with them. I mean there's just a lot of that with him with her sort of time.
that was really we valued it a lot. I would say that. Well the other part about that is is that culturally it's it's baked into the idea whereas here in the United States you know and part of the reason why we have to talk about it in these episodes is because we live in. And a tail light and garage door environment.
And so it's it's very common for us not to see our neighbors. And if we're discipling people who we don't work with or don't see on a regular basis you're going to have to put in a little effort because we're so spread out. But it sounds like in Thailand that would almost be rude. If somebody if you didn't allow someone just to walk in your house am I thinking about that?
Correct. Not quite to that degree but once you know them right? Yeah. If your friends and you didn't allow them to yeah. That would feel rude. Yeah. And yeah I think that's so true in our culture today is that we are we live segmented and isolated lives such that even if we know the names of the people that are living around us normally we don't have a relationship.
That causes us to interact with them with any regularity or depth. And so that's another thing that we try to do is not just know our neighbors names but to get involved in their lives in some way. And so we have some new neighbors this year actually and just over the last couple of weeks we've seen some progress cause it's been really slow but you know the last couple of weeks.
They're coming over. Our kids are going over there. and there's something happening. that's really encouraging to me that to me will will lead to sharing of our faith. They get to see it and we're not discipling them. So it's slightly different but it's that same core concept of you know if we're going to spend time with them then they have the ability to see things.
Right. And more is caught than taught certainly in life and in disciple-making. So yeah one of the things that I think about as we think about this topic is that. Jesus spent three years of his life that we know of every day with the same group of guys. Right. And th those were the people that he was pouring into.
Those were his intentional relationships. Those were his his kind of his squad his homeys you know and I think one of the things that I can be guilty of sometimes is trying to rush. Th the speed of trust in a relationship because I'm pretty open and out there and trusting. And and so sometimes I think that I can manufacturer.
closeness and intimacy when the reality is is that it's not going to it's not going to happen without time. And this is part of that time. That is important even if we want to discount it. So you you know that we can't we're not going to program our way out of this. Who've done an episode on that before but like we're also not going to rush.
Time out of this either we have to we have to just spend the time and take the time and make the time to say this relationship is a priority. Yeah. Yeah. And we have to do that even though most Americans feel like they have lots of things in excess but time is not one of them. Right. That's the thing that most people are like oh I'm so busy.
I wish I had more time you know et cetera et cetera. and. You know we have to think through all right well what are we going to invest our time towards? And the other part of you know if we're building a relationship of depth I love what you said because we cannot manufacture it. We can't fake it. We can't rush it.
Time has to be a part of it. And I think there's two other things that develop relationships of depth. And one of those is shared experiences. Right. So even if they're not exciting experiences just having different experiences than you normally have together really fosters that sort of deeper connection and the other one's conversation.
Right. And so as we're kind of doing those things and what most disciple-making relationships in today's culture looks like is conversation. Is the thing that they're doing the most which is great but we have to as much as we're able to to get those other two pieces in right of time and shared experiences which is really just time doing things.
when you were with Charles the guy in Minnesota that was investing in you. He spent time with you and it sounded like that time was very natural and free-flowing did was there any sort of intentionality in that that you perceived or what did that look like? I mean the only intentionality that I would say is that it was very intentional that he cared for me.
Yeah. And that he he wanted to make sure I was okay. Wanted to make sure that you know that I knew that I was loved by him and his family. And so that that was probably when it comes to that particular time now we spent time studying the word and doing things like that together outside of that. But when it comes to like the weekend stuff like that was that was just love.
Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah I've experienced some of that. And I think that is that's the minimum. Right. So if we can just do that we are adding a whole bunch to those that we're discipling. sometimes I'll advise people to just you know if you're going to a game with somebody or you know you're running errands to just try to think of one question that isn't.
And it doesn't have to be even spiritual in nature but just one intentional question of Hey I've never never heard much about your parents. What was it like to grow up in their household? You know just something to draw you closer together in the midst of that with him time. And again it's not something you have to do to make the time valuable but I think it just adds even a little bit more value into that time.
Of oh I want to I want to pursue this person getting to know them at a at a level of depth Tony we're coming close to time. What else should we say about the within principal? Anything we've missed or anything you want to add in here? No I I'll just share the takeaway and it you've mentioned it already.
And it's this basic idea that that more is caught than taught. which means that if if you're with someone if you're with him or you're with her and you're living out your faith people will respond differently than if you just try to instruct them on it. So I love that takeaway more is caught than taught Justin share the action step for.
Yeah action. Step is to plan regular time or a time at least to spend with the person that you are discipling. And so if you can plan that in the next week or two and do it right to follow through and to execute and just observe what difference that makes in your relationship with the person you're discipling because we are not just discipling them into.
One slice of life of our religion our spirituality we are trying to disciple them as a whole person. And that means we need to open up our lives as a whole person to and just invite them into a space like that that you can do. So again the with him principles super important and disciple-making really appreciate you guys tuning in and listening.
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