10. Practitioner's Podcast: The Difference Between Coaching and Disciple Making
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Man, I'm excited for today's topic because I think it's one of those subjects that so many of us in the disciple making landscape wrestle with. Today's episode is all about the difference between coaching and disciple making, and it's perfect for. Who is or ever has been confused about the difference between the two and why it's important to get a distinction.
So Justin, why don't you jump in, give us a little background on this idea and kind of when it became a problem. . Yeah, absolutely. So we need to bring some definition first around what we mean and what we're talking about when we talk about coaching. So for many of us, we grew up and the only coaching that we were familiar with was the coaching that took place in sports, right?
Somebody who is teaching you how to play sports, they're developing skill in you. They're helping the team get to a place where they can be successful in the games. And that is not the kind of coaching that we are talking about. So as I bring some definition, I wanna start with some history, right? So the word coach originally referred to a horse-drawn carriage from Coach Hungary, k o c s, but is pronounced coach.
so the horse-drawn carriage there and outside the carriage was an elevated seat for the driver or what they called the coachmen. And the coachmen ensured that the horses and the passengers. Reach their intended de destination. And so in that context, coaches were leaders. but it's not quite that simple.
Sometimes a coach is a coach but doesn't coach, sometimes coaches don't lead. And that's the type of coaching that we're talking about today that has become pretty popular in America, especially in professional context now in church context as well. And this, coaching. The sense of it that we're talking about.
Now, the other thing we need to be real clear on is it's unregulated. And so anyone can, can put their their business card together and say, I'm a certified coach, I'm a professional coach. There's no laws around that the way there are in other industries like lawyers, doctors, et cetera, et cetera. So it's a little bit of the wild, wild west in.
And so we just need to understand that sort of framework as we jump into this that, well, what are we actually talking about when we're talking about coaching? Yeah. And one of the most popular types of coaching models that we see out there in the world, especially in the business world, is what they call I B C inquiry-based coaching.
Now, Let me be clear. I'm not saying that this is a horrible idea or this is bad or anything like that. What I am saying though is inquiry-based coaching is based on the assumption. That's just not true when it comes to disciple making, and that assumption is, is that the answer that you're searching for is already deep with inside of you.
So inquiry-based coaching is this process of asking questions. Developing a framework, creating common language so that you can help the person that you're coaching get to a place, that they want to get to. So, you know, quick story. When, when I do marriage, pastoral marriage counseling. A tool that I use is inquiry-based coaching, right?
So I ask a lot of questions to see where they want to be and how I can help them get there because I'm coaching them maybe through a attention spot in their marriage that is way different than what we do in disciple making, and Justin's gonna tell us. . Yeah. So we're gonna move through four major differences between coaching and disciple making.
Tony, I love what you said there, that that coaching can be a tremendous tool for different things that we're trying to do, even within disciple making. It can be a good tool to use, but we're gonna get into trouble if instead of making disciples, our focus is on coaching and within a coaching framework.
right. So the reason we're talking about this today, the reason we're having this episode is because we want you to have clarity about what disciple making is and what isn't disciple making. And we don't want people out there who are really just doing coaching, believing in their heart and mind that they're making disciples that they're do, or that they're doing disciple making, cuz it's very different.
Okay. So four differences between coaching and disciple making. The first one is this, coaching is non-directive. , but disciple making is directive. And so, like Tony just said, inquiry-based coaching or question rooted coaching, seeks to help people by asking questions and helping them look inside and to, to reflect and to think and to come out with some answers that are going to help them move forward in their life.
Don't get us wrong, this can be really helpful in lots of context, but disciple making is something different than that. Disciple making is direct. Now, I don't want us to mistake directive within inflexible disciple making is flexible and should be adaptable to the person that we're working with, but it also has to be directive and we see it in the scriptures, right?
When Jesus invites the disciples into disciple making, he says, come follow me and I will make you fishers and men. Or he says, if you will follow me, then you will have to take up your cross. And so he says, these are the things that are gonna have to happen. And so in disciple making, it is directive. someone who is being discipled recognizes that they have a need that the discipler can help them with.
And so that's the first one. Coaching is non-directive, but disciple making is directive. Tony, what's the second one? Yeah, the, the second one plays off of this, the first one perfectly. So if, if disciple making is directive, then we begin to see in number two. That disciple making requires a faithfulness to Jesus.
While coaching requires a faithfulness to a process, so allow me to elaborate on this a little bit. When we make disciples, we make disciples for one reason and only, and one reason only to teach them how to be faithful Jesus followers, right? So disciple making is laser focused on helping someone grow in their faith so that they too can make discipl.
Coaching, on the other hand, is all about following a process. So here's why this is important. A disciple maker can't develop someone further than they're already developed themselves. So I can't disciple someone to a place that I've never been. It's the, it's the opposite of disciple making, right? So I, as the disciple maker, must also be maturing as a disciple as I'm pouring into the person.
Who I'm pouring into disciple making, right? So it's important to know that you can coach someone far beyond your own skill level. That happens all the time, right? you can coach someone to a, a much better career than you've ever had in your entire life. And that in, in a field that maybe you have no experience in, right?
So coaching is all about following a process. disciple making is about, walking kind of with someone as you've gone there before. I, I think, a great example of this is, it's really easy to coach a doctor even though I'm not a doctor, right? I could sit down with a doctor, I could ask all the business questions, I could ask what their goals are.
I coach people in podcasting all the time. because you know, Justin, you and I have been doing this for a long time. I have my other podcasts. Yep. So people always ask me about podcasting and I coach 'em. I ask 'em about their target audience. I ask now, guess what? I've never done anything in the field that they're doing that they're podcasting about.
But that's not essential to coaching. Whereas disciple making it's way different because I can't take someone in disciple making to a relationship with Jesus that I don't have. . Yeah. That's so good. That's so important. So that faithfulness to Jesus is something right, that we can't, we can't pretend we can't manufacture that.
And that, that's required in disciple making. I love that one, Tony. All right, the third one, coaching assumes you know what you need to know. Disciple making assumes you don. . Okay, so again, coaching assumes that you know what you need to know, but disciple making assumes you don't. And so for the, the process of coaching, right?
Again, that faithfulness to a process that we heard in the, the second one here, the faithfulness or the process of coaching is inquiry or questions. Reflection and then listening. Right? And so as a coach, I'm asking questions. I'm, I'm trying to draw things out. Good open-ended questions, questions that require reflection or questions that require, taking a different perspective on the situation.
And so, as somebody. reflects on that question, comes to answers, then they, they are gonna know what they need. They already know it, right? So in coaching, I've been through certified coaching training, for a year. I've been certified coach, all this. So one of the things that our, our frequently said in coaching is, you are the expert on you.
And so if you're the expert on you and you still don't know what to do, that's because you haven't had somebody walk with you or you just haven't thought about it in the right way or reflected on it in the right way for it to click in. And so the coach's job is to ask those questions for you so that you can get to that place where you're like, oh, that makes sense.
Yeah, I, I knew that. I just didn't know how. Express it or I'd forgotten it, or whatever. Until you get these insights and that, again, we're not bashing coaching in this episode, coaching is great and valuable. It's just not discipling. It's something different. And so, Coaching again, assumes you already know what you need to know, but in disciple making, the assumption is you don't know what you need to know.
Now you don't. It's not that you don't know anything, you know some things, but there are some things that you recognize you need help developed, being developed in. And so, you know, we think of Luke six 40. where Gia says, A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.
And so in disciple making, it's really this process of teaching and training and developing, and you're trying to be taught and trained and developed by somebody who is just a little bit further down the road than you are. And the great thing about disciple making is even as a disciple maker, You're learning, but the learning that you get from the disciple is just a little bit different.
Cuz normally the disciple isn't intentionally teaching you. Sometimes they are, but normally you're just learning through observation and how they're engaging and how God's wired them up. But in coaching it's very, very different. Coaching assumes, you know what you need to know. And disciple making assumes that you don't, you, you know that you have more than you need to learn.
Tony, next one, fourth one. Well, again, you'll, you're gonna see how all of these are so connected because that, that third one that Justin just talked about is about, assuming you know what you need to know versus not, and then the fourth one is about self versus others. So the fourth point is coaching is primarily self-focused, but disciple making.
Primarily others focused. So another way to say this is in coaching, we only care about building our castle in disciple making. We care about building the kingdom. And I like that language because, in coaching, what we're trying to do is create something that's ours, right? It's mine. It's about what I can do.
It's about this outcome that I desire. It's about me, which is okay, right? I'm not, listen, sometimes we need that in life. And I've certainly had coaches and there have been times. I've asked Justin to coach me through stuff. You know, it, it happens to all of us. We all need a good coach. The difference is in disciple making.
It's about what the Lord desires. It's not about what I desire, and the Lord desires for us to build the kingdom of God, right? So disciple making relationships begin with the disciple wanting to grow, to help another grow in maturity. Right? Think about Matthew. 28, 18 through 20, right? Where he says, go into all the nations.
It's, it's about focusing outward. It's not about what I can get, it's about what I can give. Right. And you know, we talk about it all the time at the beginning of this podcast. Our goal is to, to help make disciples who can make disciples. That's the goal of being a disciple, is to, to share what the Lord is doing with the entire kingdom and not just with what I'm doing personally and that difference.
Is a pretty big difference. The end game is, is already set for us in disciple making, whereas in coaching, you can make that whatever you want and you should, if you're getting coached and you're paying for a coach, you know, get the most out of it. But when you're making disciples, hey, that comes from the Lord, that doesn't come from us, right?
Jesus is already kind of set out for us what he desires for us when we go there for and make discipl. and we don't get to decide what that outcome is. I think about when Jesus called the disciples himself, right? He was very clear, that he didn't tell them where they were going. And that's the very nature of disciple making.
Hey, come follow me and by the way, I'm gonna die at the end, , right? And then come back, . He didn't. Yeah. He didn't say, Hey guys, what do you, how can I help you get where you wanna go? Right. , right? That's how Jesus approached these guys. And so, yeah. Yeah. That's really good. I, I think it's just important for us to remember that in disciple making, it's not about what we want.
it it's about the fullness of life with Christ, which ideal. Through the course of our maturity becomes what we want. But for most of us in the beginning, it's just not there. And you know, true confession on bad days, it's not there for me now. . Yeah. So there's one other thing I think we need to talk about here, Tony, is the importance of coaching within a disciple making relationship.
And so, , I would recommend, another way to say it. I would think it'd be beneficial for anyone who is a disciple maker to learn the skills of coaching. And here's why I say this, because if you are a good coach, then what you are good at, Is asking good questions, and we haven't done episode on this yet, but maybe in the future we will of how Jesus asked questions.
Jesus was a master question asker, and so a, a good skill, an essential skill, I would say in disciple making is coaching, is asking those good questions to help the person that you're helping to reflect on what they believe and why they believe it, and to help them get to a place. They see where they are, they see where they want to go, and they can figure out and identify some practical steps to move from one place to another, which is another thing that coaches do really well, is they help move you from where you are, help you see where you want to go, help you see incrementally.
What are the next steps for you and. In disciple making, coaching is a tremendous, super, super valuable skill to have. but what we're talking about in this episode and what we're trying to be really, really clear on is if the entire framework of, of what you're trying to do with someone is coaching, that is something very different than disciple making.
But I also want everyone who's listening to hear really clearly that coaching is a tremendous skill to have. and disciple making or asking those good questions that help them reflect and lead to what those next steps are for them. Super helpful. And so if you have an opportunity to get some coaching, training, as a disciple maker, especially as you've once, you've discipled a couple people already, so you kind of have the.
The fundamentals of disciple making down this type of skill development and can be really powerful and helpful for you as a disciple maker. I think that's such a great point. Justin. We want you to have a, a whole, you know, toolbox full of tools that will help you make disciples who will make disciples.
And this is one of them, but we also want you to have a really clear definition. on what disciple making is, and here's why. From my own experience, I will tell you that without a clear definition about what disciple making is, we end up calling a lot of things disciple making that aren't it , right? And so pastoral counseling is not disciple making, and we could do an episode on that.
The difference, right? And today's episode is really the difference between coaching and disciple making because it's one of those areas where in our Christian culture, over time, they've bled together. And the reality is, is when we bleed things together like this, we lose the true identity of what the Lord called us to.
So guys, that's well said. Oh, one more thought. . I was just gonna say, well said. And I was gonna wrap us up unless you want to. No, you got it, bro. Get, I'm really excited about our take care. High energy, Justin. Here we go, . That's right. All right, so our takeaway today, Is coaching and disciple making are not the same, right?
Probably a big surprise to you on that takeaway. Coaching and disciple making are not the same. The action step. Take some time to evaluate your disciple making relationship and ask the question, am I coaching or am I making disciples? Okay. So as you think about those, you're discipling, as you are reflecting on what you're doing and how you're doing it, just ask that question.
Are you coaching or are you making disciples? Hey, we really appreciate you guys. We appreciate you for listening and following along in this journey with us. We would love it if you would rate and review and also share this podcast with others. If you know somebody that's learning, disciple making, already making disciples, You just think they might be interested in maybe taking that first step towards what it might look like to make a disciple.
We would love it if you would share this episode. So that's all for today. We'll talk to you guys real soon.