19. The Importance of Holiness in Disciple Making
Hey everybody, welcome back to the practitioners podcast where we're applying Jesus style disciple making to everyday life. This episode and all of our episodes are powered by Navigators Church Ministries. which helps churches make disciples who can make disciples for more information or to get signed up for their monthly newsletter, go to navigators, church ministries.
org guys. I'm so excited for today's conversation. It's a little bit of a different one, and it's perfect for any disciple maker who seems to lack power in disciple making any disciple maker who seems to lack power in disciple making. That's right, Tony. This is, , like you said, a bit unusual, right? So, we plan these episodes out the whole season, and then as they get closer, we begin to put some things onto paper and talk about them.
And, , this morning, actually, I was working on this episode, and I went to look in all the disciple making books that I have in my personal library, which is quite a few. And I looked for this topic just to get some ideas and to see what other people are saying. And they're not saying anything about it.
And I thought that was really interesting. And so then what happened was Tony and I got on, on, , our apparatus. I don't know what we're talking about. It's like zoom. It's called squad. Yeah. Yeah, , so we're sitting here talking and we just had a five to ten minute conversation About all the ways that we're kind of missing each other on this topic and was really interesting I wish we could have recorded it or hadn't been recording so we just could have started with that So what we were talking about we're gonna kind of recreate it a little bit But is I wanted to title the episode and who knows what we'll end up titling it But our working title was the importance of holiness and disciple making And in my mind, I'm thinking about, okay, holiness, how, to what degree are we separating from sin?
To what degree are we pursuing becoming more and more like Jesus Christ likeness in our own personal life? And the way that that is going to impact. The way and the quality of our disciples that we make all that sort of thing, how that will impact it. And Tony, tell us about your reaction to that initially.
Well, I, I love the word holiness, but I would say that when we're talking about this idea of separating ourselves from sin to become more like Christ, I would say that, that that's more obedience is a word that I'm a little bit more familiar with. And even more so in the circles that I hang out with, I would say that that's.
What I call spirit led disciple making, right? So spirit led disciple making is when we listen to the Holy Spirit, we're obedient to God's will in our own lives. We have that relationship working so that I can take what God is revealing to me and then poured into someone else, right? In the Wesleyan community, we would call this the art of sanctification, the process of being more and more.
like Christ. As a matter of fact, when I make disciples, , one of the things that a tool that I sometimes use is called L shaped listening, where I'm trying to listen to God while I'm also listening to the people in the room. And so L shaped listening is always being aware as is the spirit revealing anything to me while I'm also talking to the room as a whole.
Very similar to what we see in scripture from, , you know, Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch, right? He hears from God that he should go stand by someone. He goes, stands by this eunuch and all of a sudden he's reading from the prophet Isaiah about who Jesus is, right? So that's, I would call that spirit led disciple making.
Yeah. And I, I liked all that. And as I was thinking, I realized this is a completely different lens or framework from which I was already thinking. And I had to just pause and think, , How do I, what do I think about that? Is that the same thing I'm talking about? Is it different? I didn't disagree with anything that, that Tony was communicating.
But at the same time, there was something about it that I was like, ah, some of those terms just feel loaded to me. , obedience is talking, in my mind, more about, like, what we're doing than maybe our posture. And it doesn't have to be that way. That's just the way it came off to me initially. , in spirit led, I know that that can mean all sorts of different things depending on your theological background, et cetera, et cetera.
And I was like, ah, I'm not sure, you know, we want to lean into that phrase too much. And as we were talking, , I, I had a verse come to mind. It's Ephesians 3 20. It's familiar to probably many of you who are listening to this podcast. And, , that verse says now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power, does it work within us?
And I've heard that verse used in lots of context and lots of ways and content. A lot of times, it really bothers me because I feel like people separate the first half of the verse from the second half of the verse. And the first half of the verse, you know, he can do immeasurably more than all we can ask or imagine.
We think, wow, that's awesome. But the second part of the verse is the limiting part, right? And then we don't talk a lot about that or hear a lot about that, but the limiting part is according. to His power that is at work within us. And I think that's the heart of what we're trying to talk about today.
Whether we want to label it becoming more holy, whether we want to label it sanctification or spirit led, what we're talking about is to what degree are we surrendering and separating, surrendering ourselves to God and separating from sin, because that is really the cap upon which the Spirit can move in us and through us.
Right. According to that verse, according to his power, does it work within us? So it's not according to to what he can do. It's according to the power and the way that we are allowing him to have possession and movement within us. Yeah. And I love this example for two reasons. One. , I would say as someone who leans a little bit more charismatic than others, you know, I don't know how you feel about that.
I would say that the Holy Spirit brought that verse to you to guide us through this conversation. Right? So I would say that Justin, in this case, if I was discipling Justin, I would say that's a great example of L shape, , L shape listening because he's, he's listening for the word of God. Right? And how God brings a scripture to his heart, which he's already done the work for to have it memorized.
Right? And so that's kind of, it's a perfect example of the verse itself, because Justin doesn't normally think of that verse, but clearly in this conversation, which wasn't being recorded, it was just two friends talking through kind of the plan and kind of our thoughts on this, that God brought this verse to his mind.
And, and what I love about this concept in disciple making is that it's a reminder that That our ability to make faithful followers is completely dependent upon us ourselves being faithful followers, right, is that if we want to create people who are going to be obedient, spirit led or holy, sanctified, we ourselves have to be striving or putting in the work.
To do the exact same thing. Yeah. And so in discipling language, we would talk about that by saying, you don't reproduce, we don't reproduce what you know, you reproduce who you are. Right, and so it's not how many techniques, how many disciple making principles. It's not any of that stuff. It's who you are is what's going to be reproduced in another person, right?
Another way to think about that is you can't reproduce beyond who you've become. And so in disciple making, that's super duper important. Kind of what I'm hoping that will come out in this episode is this idea of we can't, we can't just sit back and relax and our personal , pursuit of holiness with God.
Now that you're a disciple maker, if you are becoming that, there's no point at which you can sit back and say, you know, I'm pretty good now. I don't need to continue to lean into obedience. I don't need, I don't need to stop leaning into being led by the spirit. I don't need to stop leaning into separating from sin.
All those things are a continual. And we're going to talk about why that is. Yeah, one of the things that I love on this language is this idea of being set apart. And we see that a ton in scripture. I'm going to read today from 2 Corinthians 6, 15 through 18. And it begins like this. What harmony is there between Christ and Bilal?
Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said, I will live with them. And I will walk among them and I will be their God and they will be my people. Verse 17, therefore, come out from them and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing and I will receive you. Verse 18. And I will be a father to you, and you'll be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty. Now this is, , it's a lot to process in this verse, but I think one of the things that we have to hold onto is this idea about how we separate ourselves from the unclean things in our lives.
And in this case, I think Paul is talking about idols. He's talking about the things that hold us back, right? Sin as an idea is anything that separates us from God, anything that separates us from God. So we must be willing to acknowledge what separates us and then, , remove that from our life. So it actually takes real life work to remove or repent from what we have sinned against.
And return back to God so that we can separate ourselves from the rest of the world, which, you know, as we all know, is broken and unclean. Yeah, and that separation idea is the very, , the meaning, the, the root definition of the word holy is to be separate, right? To separate from, from sin in this case and other cases it's just from the world, right?
In general. , so to separate from that which is not God's. And so, , I love those verses too, and part of that is just for that idea of this, , idea of being holy, being separate, being different, being called out from. , another verse we want to share with you and talk about is 2 Timothy 2, 19 through 21.
So it's 2 Timothy chapter 2, 19, verse 19 to 21. 19 starts, Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription, The Lord knows those who are his. And everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness. In a large house, there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for special purposes and some for common use.
Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instrents for special purposes, made holy, useful to the master, and prepared to do any good work. And so, it's this last part, really verse 20 on, that I want to focus us in on. So, Paul is writing to Timothy. He's talking about kind of a metaphor here of a large house.
There's lots of things in it. Some are gold. Some are silver. Some are wood. Some are clay. Some are for special or set apart purposes. Some are for common use. All of them have a purpose, though. But then he talks about us again. And he says, those who cleanse themselves, cleanse themselves from the latter, right?
So, from, , you know, the common use purposes. The common, the regular, , will be instrents for special purposes. So we are to become instrents. And then the part of holiness made holy again, set apart, called out from, and then the part I love useful to the master and prepared to do any good work. And as I think of my life, that's something that I pray to God, God, help me to separate myself so that you can use me to do any good work.
Not just the parts of the works that I'm comfortable with or that fit me or fit my preferences. But I want to be useful to do any good work. And that means I need to, , take a posture of continuing to separate myself from sin and to be obedient. and to be led by the spirit. Yeah. I love that verse. One of the things that I think becomes really evident in this verse that we shouldn't skip over is the idea that what God desires from every disciple maker is a relationship with him.
Right? And so, , notice the way that Paul talks to Timothy through this is that there's this confession part turning away from Nick wickedness. And in return, there's usefulness to God. So it's, it's relational, right? Hey, we meet God here. God meets us there and then God will do incredible things through us.
Any good work. What's the good work? Any good work. Why? Because God is working through us. That absolutely fires me up because I, I think as much as we want to be a disciple maker, God also wants to be a disciple maker for us. Like God wants to disciple us as we walk with others and, and that's this idea about holiness.
And there's a part for all of us, right? Just like you're saying that no matter where you are in your journey with Jesus, there is a part for you to play. There is good work for you to do. And as we grow in holiness, as we grow in maturity, the work that we're prepared to do and able to do just gets greater and greater.
And that's really exciting, right? One of the things I was thinking today is what's the alternative? Right, so if we believe, if you buy into what we're saying, that the more holy you become, the more useful you're going to be in the kingdom, and the more it's going to impact your disciple making in a positive way.
The alternative would be that we can disciple people and it doesn't matter how holy or unholy we are. Now, just think about that for a moment. If that were true, then that would mean that most of the effectiveness of disciple making would come through the curricul that you're using, would come through the techniques that you have, would come through, , you know, just the, the content of what you're talking about rather than the content of who you are.
And I don't think that's true, and we have three reasons, and there might be more, you might think of more if you do email us and tell us, but the three that we've come up with is, , I'll start us out, we'll just kind of go through them, , but the first one's motivation, right? Holiness is important in disciple making because it impacts our motivation.
You know, we might start out in disciple making with, you know, I want to make disciples because I want to have a legacy when I leave this earth. And I want my legacy to be a part of the kingdom of God. And that's both a holy motivation, but there's also some, some parts that could be, don't have to be, but they could come from a place of pride or ego as well.
Right, that, that, that would impact who we are and why we're doing what we're doing. But as we grow more and more in holiness, it might, and it doesn't have to, that's just an example. I'm a little uncomfortable with it now, but, , it's just an example that, , that it might impact that motivation. Doesn't have to, it's not necessarily a bad motivation.
Okay, but it should, as we grow more holy, our motivations will become more and more holy. Whew, Tony, move us to the second one. I don't see you dance very often like that, Justin, that was well done. , all right, the second one is one that I don't have to dance around at all. It's vision, right? So the more holy that we become, the more spirit led, the more sanctified, the more it changes how we see the world.
And, and this is true if you've read scripture for any length of time in your life. If you're been reading scripture for a couple of years, how you read scripture. As you grow in the faith, drastically changes how you lean into the will of God changes how we see the world. You could have never told me some of the things that I come to know about God when I first started, you know, this journey of following Christ.
So being set apart, striving to be in relationship with him, making myself available to be holy or a vessel that changes the way that I see everything and especially disciple making. I think about the promise that God, , you know, God makes to Abram, that his spiritual descendants will outnber the stars.
I mean, that promise is not there. You don't believe that if you're not in pursuit of holiness, in pursuit of sanctification, in pursuit of being spirit led. And so, , it drastically changes the way that we begin to see the world and the possibilities within it. Yeah, absolutely. The third one is reflection, right?
So our holiness and disciple making impacts the way that we are going to reflect Jesus in that relationship. It impacts the way that others are going to see Jesus in us, right? So if we are not growing in, , our holiness, then we're not progressing in the way that we see Jesus and we don't have his mind to a greater and greater degree.
His mind, his eyesight, his heart. And so the more and more that we have those things, the more and more holy or mature we are, the better able we are to reflect. Jesus to others and disciple making, you know, is a lot about modeling. It's a lot about reflecting the son of God to those that we are investing in and pouring into so that they get it so that they fall in love with Jesus the way that we have an even more and so with that, right?
So those three things holiness and disciple making is so important because it affects our motivation, our vision and our reflection and you might be thinking. Guys, you told us at the beginning this was for people who, you know, were wanting more power. They lack power in disciple making, but we haven't talked about that at all yet.
Tony, help us connect those dots. Friends, here's the, just the reality, right? Is that when we understand the Father's authority, we can then operate within that authority as someone who's set apart in it. Right. And so our power comes from the father. It comes from the son by the power of the Holy Spirit.
It's this whole idea that, that we have the ability to tap in to what it, what God desires for us to be his, his chosen instrent. And I absolutely think that if, if you're really clear about God in your life, it becomes so much easier to help show someone else. God in their life. Yeah. So friends, this is really important.
, our takeaway for today is you are the chosen instrent by God and how useful you are to do the work of disciple making correlates to your holiness, right? It's not caused by, but there's a correlation there, right? So you're chosen instrent by God and how useful you are to do the work of disciple making correlates to your holiness.
And your action step? Seek first His Kingdom and His Righteousness, Matthew 6, 33. Seek first His Kingdom and His Righteousness, both of those things. Hey, we're so thankful to be on this journey with you. Thanks for tuning in again, this episode. We would love it if you would like and subscribe and share our podcast with others so that we can help others continue or to join in this journey of disciple making the way that Jesus did it.
We'll see you guys next time.