Hey everybody welcome back to the practitioners podcast where we're applying Jesus style disciple making to everyday life. This episode and all of our episodes are powered by Navigators Church Ministries which focuses on helping churches make disciples who can make disciples. For more information or to get connected go to NavigatorsChurchMinistries.org.
Good morning Justin. Good morning Tony. Good afternoon. Good evening. Wherever you are however you're listening we're glad you're here. Tony I got a question for you today. And I'm excited about it. Alright fire away. I want you to picture in your mind the most famous painting in the history of the world.
Don't say what it is okay? The most famous painting in the history of the world. It's the most visited most talked about most written about picture artwork right? In the history of the world. Do you have it in your mind? I do. This is easy right? Easy so far? Yeah super easy. All right. Now I want to ask you to tell me what that picture is.
It's dogs playing poker. no. Tony. Tony. No I'm kidding. I'm kidding. It's the Mona Lisa. It's the Mona Lisa. Yes or you had me worried for a second. Okay. So the Mona Lisa. Now you have seen that a lot. You're familiar with it. What color are her eyebrows? Or her eyes? Or blue. I don't know what's in the background.
Isn't it like no I don't know. Okay. So this is this went with the exception of the dogs playing poker part. This went exactly as I was hoping. because this is an illustration of how we think we know things and have clarity on things that we actually don't. And I've actually asked that question to. quite a nber of people over the years and the most common response is exactly what you did Tony.
So my guess is listeners as you're listening you did that same thing with us right? You tried to envision the details of that picture and even though you know the picture and it was really easy at the front at the backside when we started asking detailed questions everything got blurry and your picture of it became really unclear.
Now Tony I was looking in preparation for our episode today. We're talking about the picture of a disciple and I thought for sure we had talked about this before in a past episode but after spending about a half hour looking we haven't. And so today we are going to talk about a picture of a disciple.
Tony when I say picture of a disciple what does that even mean to you? Well it's funny right? Cause I you and I were talking about this thing before we hit record and we were both really shocked and never talked about a picture of a disciple. And the reason that we haven't talked about it is because you and I both.
Work from the same definition of what a picture of a disciple is right and so for you and I culturally of our understanding and about who and what a picture of a disciple looks like and so I think one of the reasons why. We've never talked about it because you know you essentially discipled me what a disciple looks like so our definition is the same and and maybe that's one of the big things to keep in mind as we talk about this.
A picture of a disciple is a common belief on what. following Jesus looks like. It's it's really really important to have a deep understanding about what following Jesus looks like and then make that understanding so apparent. So clear everyone can kind of follow along. What do you think about when you think about a picture of a disciple Justin?
Yeah I think you are exactly right on that right? So when we think about picture of a disciple and the importance of it this episode really is around culture building right? Because one of the big pieces of building a disciple making culture is you need a picture of a disciple or another way to say that is you need an agreed upon Definition and image or something that helps it be sticky in people's mind so that when you talk about what a disciple is in that culture everybody is thinking of the same thing right?
We're not thinking of dogs playing poker. Another person is thinking of the Mona Lisa. Like we're thinking of the same thing while we've talked about what a definition of a disciple is on this podcast nerous times. This idea of a picture is more of a culture piece. And here's why we're talking about today.
We're talking about today because in the next few episodes after this one we're going to be looking at how to build a disciple making pathway or a pathway for discipleship in a church culture in a ministry culture. How do you do that? And Tony I know that for you and for me we both get. questions regularly from pastors and others like Hey we need a pathway need a pathway need a pathway.
And I've had pastors come to me say we need a pathway. And and the thing that I ask right after that is okay well tell me about your picture. And often they don't have a picture. And I say well we can't make a pathway before we have a picture because if we think about a picture of a disciple is the the destination it's who you want to become it's who you want your people to become.
And the pathway is kind of like the road or the the roadmap to get there. Here's how we're going to become this type of person or how we're going to help our people. become this type of person. And so if we don't have clarity on what it is we're trying to become then building that pathway we could be building it to a destination that's totally different than where we actually want to go.
So that's why this is so important. That's why we're talking about it now because we want that to to get absorbed and to really for that to land right? That this picture of a disciple is essential to do before you figure out a pathway. Here's the other thing that's interesting that happened out of past.
When we have a picture of a disciple is programs become the picture right? So when we don't get really clear about what that personal relationship with Jesus looks like. So when we talk about a picture of a disciple what we're talking about is the individual life as it pertains to following Jesus.
Well without the picture then what it ends up becoming is it ends up becoming if you do this book or if you take these steps or if you go to these classes when the truth is that. The picture is incredibly personal and relational to each individual. So what we're actually trying to create is an individual.
kind of idea about who you know what it looks like to follow Jesus for me. Said another way Pastor Dave from Centerville Grace where where I get to serve on the staff team at like one of the things that we were just talking about is like why does it matter? Why does being a disciple maker?
Matter. Why does following Jesus matter? And how do we begin to articulate that? Now we're still in the process of forming our our sticky our definition that we can share with the culture that we're building not having the definition leads everyone to a place of ambiguity around what we're trying to get to.
And so this is why this culture is so important. And in the space of ambiguity programs will almost always dominate. Yeah that's absolutely right. And in ambiguity people will fill in those gaps with whatever they want right? Whatever they're thinking their their own understanding of a disciple. And that's all they have to do.
So it's not a it's not a blame thing. It's not a Hey you shouldn't do that thing. It's just like okay well. As leaders and we need to help develop clarity in the culture by developing a picture of a disciple. So let's talk through how to do this right? We're talking about more than a definition although a definition is a step in that direction.
But one of the first things that we need to do when we're trying to develop a picture of a disciple is to get in the scriptures and and really search the scriptures and see what they say about what a disciple is. What a disciple does what a disciple believes and if you spend time to do that diligently you're going to find that there are a lot of things a lot of descriptors of what a disciple is and does and believes.
Now there's no way you can incorporate all of those things into one picture and have it be memorable. And so the next piece of what you're going to do is you're going to take all of that and you're going to try to To pull it together into a definition or a description. Again that's not your picture yet.
We're still on the road to developing that picture. And then you want to talk about it with others right? This isn't an exercise to do on your own. It's not one person's gonna you know go up to the mountain and bring back this picture as if it's from God and you. No we need to do this collaboratively with the leaders in your church in your ministry.
but then one of the things that's probably the hardest is moving from that short definition that short description that's going to emphasize a few of those qualities and then you're going to bring it into something that's memorable. You know the ideal is a visual picture that you're hanging some scriptures on you're hanging some of those characteristics or qualities of a disciple on that image or an acronym sometimes.
And then you are going to refine it refine it refine it. And then it's going to be ready to present and to begin talking about. in that culture. And if it sticks in the culture and sticks in people's minds then it's going to make a big difference because people are going to really see and get oh this is what you're talking about when you say a disciple.
This is what you're talking about when you ask me to be a disciple. And this is what you're talking about when you're asking me to make disciples. You know one of the things that often comes up as just I kind of this work around the country is is people can be sometime about the very strict definition we have.
And so like oh can't we just be friends or oh can't you know the work I'm doing as a pastor to pastoral counseling or like all of these things sometimes get thrown in the definition of disciple making. And To be clear we don't have anything against those things ever right? But what we are trying to do is paint a very clear picture.
Right. And so as you think about your picture of disciple making what you're essentially doing are drawing the boundaries of what it's going to look like in your community in your movement in your church. Right. And so as you paint this picture as you paint it collaboratively as you wrestle as you create something passionable as we like to say here right as you begin to put together.
What you're also doing simultaneously are creating boundaries for your church on what is and what
people making because whatever whatever you do to help paint that picture falls underneath the brella and whatever doesn't help paint that picture does not. And so in a lot of ways good boundaries create good pictures. Yep. And in the same way just like my gifting and design is different from Tony's the things that really speak to me in the scriptures are a little bit different than what speaks to Tony in the script in the scriptures different churches different ministry should have different pictures because it's going to express the values and the priorities and the calling that God has placed on them.
That's a little bit different and a little bit unique from the place down the street. And that's good. And as it should be. So we're talking a lot in generalities. We're talking about I mean we did get to some specifics on the how but let me give you a couple examples of pictures of a disciple. Right?
One of them you should be familiar with. It's the navigator's wheel. And so we did an episode on the wheel not too long ago. I think it was last season but if you picture the middle right? Picture like a bicycle wheel the hub or the middle is Jesus. It's There's four spokes moving out. The horizontal spokes have to do with loving others.
So it characterizes witnessing. So sharing our faith loving those that don't yet know Jesus. The other one is loving those who do know Jesus and fellowship. And then the vertical ones have to do with loving God and hearing from him. And so the one coming down is prayer. Or the word rather the one coming down is the word the one going up is prayer as we pray to him and the word has come down to us from him.
And then the hub sorry the hub why am I missing this? The rubber. The rim thank you. Okay so the rim. Where the rubber meets the road. Where the rubber meets the road is obedience. So the obedient disciple the obedience Christian in action. And so that is the navigator's picture of a disciple and it really has been for pretty much 70 years now almost the entire history of the navigators.
Another picture of a disciple is the triangle that Mike Breen developed when he was with 3DM. And the triangle is up in and out which describes our relationship with Jesus. Another one is Dan Spader who we had on the podcast. I think it was season two. he talks about Holy Spirit power and Holy Spirit is not an acronym but the power is and so the power of the Holy Spirit is prayerful obedient word centered exalting the father and relational.
And so as you can see each of these things each of these pictures. emphasize something different about being a disciple but they all have some commonality and that they're trying to communicate in such a way that comes out of the scriptures and brings it into focus so that people can remember it. Now Tony I have a question for you.
How do you how do you think Jesus did this? How did he communicate pictures to his disciples about what he was talking about? I think one of the things that we see over and over again are the parables right? Is that when Jesus uses a parable he uses it to kind of portray a picture. And so you know if you've been following Jesus for any length of time and I say mustard seed right?
That's a picture of a very passable tool about what mighty faith will do. And must proceed is one of those things that get used all the boat. I think what we see I believe it's in the gospel of Mark is that Jesus says that Hey I'm going to use the parables to teach what we're called to be. And then what I love about Jesus style disciple making is that after he would preach big sermons where he used these the sermon on the Mount for example he used this incredible metaphors throughout the whole thing.
And then he pulled the disciples aside and he unpacked the pictures that he used. And he taught them what the parables meant and why it was so important. And so I I think parables when people lived in context without the internet right? Everybody who was in Jesus's space kind of experienced the same thing.
It's a little bit different now. And but at the end of the day parables were kind of that first picture of a disciple maker that Jesus used. anything I missed there Justin? No I love that. I'm that's exactly what I was thinking right is he's he's constantly communicating in images and parables right?
He's talking about the the fig tree. He's he's pointing out the vines in the vineyard I mean he's just walking and moving throughout the culture that he lived in and he's He's bringing these images into people's mind and then he's attaching meaning to them that's different than what they had before he started the teaching.
And so in a lot of ways that's what we're doing with this picture of a disciple is we're taking the time to think and to pray and to trust that God's going to bring an image to us. An image to the church or the ministry that really helps clarify for people what we mean when we say disciple what we mean when we say follower of Christ.
And so if we have that picture Oh it is so powerful to to help people get it. And once they get it it's so much easier for them to pass it on. Now again I want to emphasize that this has to come before a pathway. Next few episodes like I mentioned we're going to be talking about Pathway but you have to spend the time to develop a picture if you want the Pathway to really be effective in getting people to that destination.
Otherwise there is no clear destination. It's almost like saying Hey we're going to go on a trip and we're going to meet over in Nevada. Well okay yeah but where? Well you know just over there. Well that's helpful for a little while right? If you're starting in Ohio that can help us. We're all basically going to be on the same road at the beginning but eventually we're going to be real confused because we don't know exactly where we're going.
We just have a general direction. And so the more clarity we can provide people the more it's really going to help them in disciple making the more it's going to help your culture become a disciple making culture. Tony any final points before we get to our takeaway and action step? I just want to kind of end with this.
if you're a leader right now and you're listening to this podcast you aren't going to be able to paint this picture alone. And get people to buy in the culture is so important walking alongside people is so important having different folks from different ages and stages of life. speak into this picture gives a different kind of a buy in that changes the movement in your church.
So leader take the time to do the work bring the people in the room and paint the picture together. Awesome Tony. I want you if you could do those take away an action step for us today. Absolutely. The takeaway you can make it or you can be it. You can't make it or you can't be it if you can't see it.
So let me say that again. You can't make it or you can't be it if you can't see it. Action step. Take time to collaboratively develop and share. Your picture of a disciple take time to collaboratively develop and share your picture of a disciple friends as always super thankful for you taking the time to listen being a part of this journey.
We're so excited to start talking about the discipleship pathway the best way to make sure you don't miss any of these episodes hit that subscribe button wherever you listen to podcasts and Hey. The highest compliment you can give us share this episode with a friend maybe a whole team of people that you're working with right now to develop your your picture of a disciple until next time we'll see you guys real soon.