Hey everybody welcome back to the practitioners podcast where we're applying Jesus style disciple making to everyday life. This episode and all of our episodes are powered by Navigators Church Ministries where we work every day to help churches live out the Great Commission. Justin how are you today?
You just got back from a big trip. You were in Texas one of the greatest states of the union. Yeah. And they'll tell you that right? They will. How many guns did you see? That's the question.
That's a good question. yeah how many did I see and how many were around me that I that I wasn't aware of. But yeah it was an interesting trip. It was a week long. So one of the longer trips that I do throughout the year. And so glad to be back. but here's the thing Tony. I had an experience down there and I wanted to share with you because it's been sticking in my head ever since I had it.
But also I thought as I've been thinking about our last couple episodes on kind of historical context and Jesus style disciple making I just feel like it has some parallels. Okay. So the experience was this I was in a session and one of the things that was talked about was this way of doing disciple making.
And one of the key phrases that kept coming was you know this is so easy that anyone can do it. Ooh how did that make you feel? Yeah. Oh I was I was conflicted right? Because on the one hand like you and I we we want everybody to be making disciples right? That is what we want. Every Christ follower pursuing others and trying to disciple them and help them become mature disciple makers in their own right.
So on the one hand like I'm I'm good with that. But on the other hand I just felt like boy if this isn't the rallying cry of modern day disciple making. So easy. Anyone can do it. And the other side of it is it just kind of bugs me Because it's like I don't know you bugged by something. That's so weird I know it's it is shocking but I don't know that Jesus spent three years of intense relational training with 12 people for us today to be like Hey you could learn this and you know maybe it takes you Eight weeks to learn maybe less.
And it's so easy. Anyone can do it. Like I just have I have trouble with how those sit together. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well so so much of what we talk about when we talk about Jesus style disciple making. Is about raising the bar right? It's about giving people you know what we've talked about the last two episodes.
It's about giving historical context to the tools that Jesus used so that he could train someone to make disciples who can make disciples. And and the problem with that kind of language is that it doesn't necessarily promote what you and I would call tool based disciple making. Yes. Yep. And that's what we want to talk about today with you is this idea of tool based tools based disciple making or we could think of it as resource rich disciple making.
But I really think we need to start contrasting this more. not only in in what we do here Tony but also in the culture at large because as I think about disciple making here in America in the West there's really two paths that I see. There's there's the first path which I would call content or curricul based disciple making.
Which is in my opinion heavily influenced by conserism. It's this idea of bringing it down to a level where the masses can grab hold of it and quickly grasp it and run with it. but really what happens and again we've talked about it before is People are multiplying curricul as opposed to multiplying Jesus and disciples Jesus's life in the in the life of other disciples.
And then there's this other path of what we're calling tools based disciple making. And I really believe the Navigators are kind of the originators at least modern day of tools based disciple making. I don't believe currently the Navigators even have language around this. Because the Navigators are 90 years old this year.
And the reality of that is For the first 40 or 50 years there weren't others that had prominence in the culture doing disciple making. And so if you were doing disciple making and it was above above the waterline right people were seeing it and were aware of it. It was probably connected or influenced by the Navigators at some point.
But now it's changed. Now thankfully there's a conversation in the church. There's conversations in lots of different organizations that are doing it. But at least in church world most of most of what disciple making is it happens through content and curricul and it leads to different outcomes than what tools based disciple making leads to.
Well I think one of the things that's interesting right when you talked about the being 90 years old is that they've been doing it for so long that they don't even know that they're doing it. Which is crazy because that's actually what happens to most of us when we use a tool and get really proficient out of it.
Right. When we get really good at using a tool it just almost becomes like. An extension of our person. And and I think that's one of the things that differentiates our definition of tools with something like a program or a book because tools really just kind of come out of who we are there they're kind of like I can talk to someone about the word because the word is a part of my life right?
It's a part of who I am. And so it's a tool that I feel proficient in because I've been using it long enough to be. Good with it right? And that didn't happen overnight right? They were and and there you know people who I discipled early on didn't get the benefit of my seminary degree but you know like as I've grown and matured in my own walk with the Lord my ability to use the tool has grown as well.
Yes that's exactly right. And I I want to be careful how we're talking about this because there's probably people listening that their their experience or their perspective is more along what we would call content or curricul based disciple making and disciple making is good regardless. But what we're trying to delineate or distinguish between is these different paths of doing it and why we have settled where we've settled.
Now I think that it's healthy to have robust discussion and robust ability to listen to the other side and and hear how they got there even if you end up being somewhere else. But you know as we're coming out of these historical episodes of how did Jesus make disciples? What's the context in which he did that?
I think what we're saying is that tools based disciple making is standing upon principles that Jesus practiced. And so there's others. So again when I was in Texas what I heard again and again and again was what it stood on. was utilitarianism is this really works. This is really effective. And the effectiveness was in getting more and more and more and more people caught up in this disciple making wave that they were moving towards.
but I really believe and we've talked about that that the methods that we employ need to be rooted in the principles that Jesus taught. And so in tools based disciple making one of the things that is true is that the main tool is the word of God. Yeah. That is the main tool. Now there's other tools that we can use or bring in but the main tool is the word of God.
And when you look at Jesus and how he ministered he was constantly referring back to the old Testament. He was constantly bringing people into the scriptures. And we see from the disciples that they continued that right? They memorized things not only in the Old Testament but moving forward they were memorizing what Jesus had taught.
And so for us the main tool in tools based disciple making is the Word of God. And it's out of that that other tools emerge. So the other tools in tools based disciple making primarily are things like questions. Asking good questions stories out of your own life stories with God stories of time that you've been facing a struggle stories of what you've gotten out of the Word that week and then illustrations which we've also talked a lot about.
Jesus was a master at using illustrations right? He would point to the seeds. He would point to the fig tree. He would point to different things in their culture and things that they were familiar with. And then he would hang principles upon them and sometimes hang scripture on them from the old Testament.
And then he would teach from that. And these things were so vivid for the disciples that they stuck with them. And then they taught out of those two. And that's essentially what we're trying to do. In tools based disciple making now the big part of tools based discipling tool to is the tools should come out of who we are the tools come out of who we are and then we can we can find the appropriate context and situations to apply them as we're walking with people relationally.
And that's just a really different framework from you know moving through a book and we're talking about this thing today because it's chapter whatever and the person that wrote it none of us know and we don't really know if that person has fruitfulness of life or just skillfulness in teaching the word and writing it down which are very very different things when we think about incarnating the gospel and having it really be life on life sort of practices.
You know and what's interesting about that is is that that's not to say that Justin and I don't ever use books when we're meeting with the people that we're discipling right? Because we're certainly not saying that you know we were big fans of like Master Plan of Evangelism or Ways of the Along Sider or there are even some books that I use on prayer or.
if I want to teach on the Holy Spirit that they're all of these books that I do use but I use them as a kind of an amplifier to the tools that I saw Jesus use. Right. So okay. How does so in the ways of the alongside or one of the things that if you've ever used a book by Bill Mowry who's a friend of the podcast you know one of the things that you'll see is that he always points us back to scripture.
So if I'm using Ways of the Alongsider to disciple someone right we may have a chapter on vision and mission and all that stuff but then I'm going to go back to the Word and talk about it right? So what I'm using it is I'm using it as a catalyst to get us back to the practices of Jesus. And then again like Justin said we're specifically applying them to the person we're discipling.
You know I may start with the illustration like the wheel and maybe the person says that prayer is their least refined skill. So then I I have a whole thought process on different tools that I can use for prayer. And maybe I'm going to use the ax method adoration confession Thanksgiving supplication right?
That's a tool that I'm going to give them. And then maybe on top of that we'll read a book on prayer. Adam Weber's got a really accessible it's a it's an on ramp kind of book on prayer. Right. And then I'm going to go back and have used the tool and then look at how Jesus prayed. Right. And and you can kind of see that we're building a foundation on Jesus style tools and then using everything else to point back to that so that the person is not just standing on a book.
They're standing on a biblical foundation to make disciples who can make disciples. Yeah because what we're trying to do is equip right that the whole point of tools based disciple making and I think probably the biggest benefit is it equips the person that we're discipling. It equips them to be able to do disciple making in a way that is individualized right?
If we only use books if we only use a certain curricul then we have no flexibility to flexibility of skills probably a better way to say it. We have no skill in understanding where that person is and what their needs are and then responding to them with the word of God and the things that they need.
At that time. And so our playbook is really limited. Now the hard part and the pushback that we'll often get on tools based disciple making is Oh that's really hard. you know who can really do that? And I again I struggle with that because Jesus was putting in front of those that he was inviting in.
He was putting the difficulty in front of them at first when he invited them. You know if anyone would come after me and must deny himself and take up his daily. Hey this is going to be hard guys. But it's worth it. Right? And so the work that comes in there's effort that needs to be made in the life of a disciple in order to become a disciple maker in order that these things come out of who they are and the tools they have spent enough time getting into their heart and into their life they spent time refining them.
They've spent time developing their own sometimes so that they aren't just dabblers in disciple making. They become masters in disciple making. And really masters in disciple making is what I see Jesus building His movement upon. And so when we think we're going to have people that kind of do this disciple making thing as just another thing in their life and another thing that they've given minimal effort to and it doesn't get down deep into who they are it shouldn't be surprising when they only dabble with it for a while and then they move on to something else.
Yeah I often think about Luke and when Jesus sent out the 72 right he sent them out as a part of this idea of teaching them to be able to be creative ministers of the gospel. You know he wants you to go preach the gospel heal the sick cast out demons and anywhere you're not welcome which will be some places shake the dust off your feet and then come back.
Right. And so this is this is part of this whole process is I really feel like. I've made a good disciple maker when that disciple maker has an entire toolbox of tools that he can use to make future disciple makers. Because again and we we've talked about this on this podcast before the tool that I may love the most may not be the tool that you love the most.
My job is not. To get you to follow Jesus the way that I follow Jesus my goal is just to get you to follow Jesus in the way that Jesus taught his followers to follow him. Right. And that's that's a very vast array of of different tools. And you know you can see Jesus ask the disciples who do people say that I am?
Right. And you can see Jesus use those questions and really get people to own the idea that. That each and every one of us are called to that personal relationship with Jesus and out of that personal relationship with Jesus we're showing other people who Jesus are and then giving them the tools to follow them and to teach others to do the same.
Yeah because Jesus has created us as individuals. He's created us as unique people with unique giftings and unique experiences. And so you know our goal in disciple making isn't to make people that all look the same. It's to create disciples and disciple makers who become mature in who they are meant to be.
And then that they're they're unfolding that calling and that being that personal identity in their life in a certain way that looks different than me. And so when I've made a disciple maker there will be some similarities between me and that person based on experiences et cetera et cetera. But there should also be significant differences because they are different from me.
And so I think about it as we're trying to make creative disciple makers. that comes out of their personhood the way that they interact and disciple others. You know what content curricul based disciple making tends to do is it makes you know maybe proficient disciple makers that okay well we can do this thing and we can do it proficiently but we're all doing it the same way.
And it shouldn't be that way if we're if we're designed uniquely. And so some of the big concepts here in tools based disciple making I think of it as three things. It's open faith right? So what is God doing in my life now? What am I trusting him for? And I'm sharing that with the person that I'm discipling.
So he can see that hey God is active in my life. I'm trusting him for things. I am not finished. My life is not perfect. All those sorts of things. So it's open faith. It's open Bible. What am I getting out of the word? What is he getting out of the word? How do we get into the word and meet with God in a personal way?
How do we engage with the Holy Spirit through the word of God? But then open life right? Where are the struggles in my life? What's going well? What's not? you know where where am I hitting my limits? As a person where am I bping into my sinfulness and the places in me where God is still in the midst of transforming me to become more and more like him.
So you know I I hear that we have just such a short time to talk about this and 20 minutes doesn't even do it justice. But what I want and what I hope is that as you listen. You would consider who do you want to become? Who do you feel like God is asking you to become as a disciple and a disciple maker?
And what does maturity look like for you? Does it look like just knowing how to help someone through a book? Does it look like just you know having a certain level of maturity or does it look like such an intimate relationship with God that you are sharing out of who you are and the way that he's gifted you but also you've put in effort to know the word so that when certain problems come you know where to take people in the word that will really help them.
And Honestly I'm I'm guessing and I'm pretty confident that most of you there's something within you that yearns for the latter that yearns for a type of maturity that can meet people where they are and help them wherever they are on their spiritual journey to take those next steps towards Jesus.
Well friends we are so incredibly thankful for the opportunity to share these thoughts with you today. Our takeaway disciple making requires us to become something and for us to help others become something. Right? That deep longing that Justin was talking about. Action step. What are you doing to become an equipped disciple maker?
What are you doing to become an equipped disciple maker? As always we're incredibly thankful for our time together today. We're thankful for you and we hope that this episode was useful. If it was do us a favor share it with a friend. Maybe somebody who you know is struggling to decide what they should use to disciple someone.
We're thankful for you and we look forward to seeing you guys real soon.