Hey everybody. Welcome back to the practitioners podcast. I'm excited to give you a little introduction to navigators, church ministries with my good friend, Dane, Dane, would you succinctly say what the mission of navigators church ministries is around them? We want to help the church itself, the great commission.
And we all know that the great commission is about making disciples. And so we work, we come alongside pastors and help them to figure out in their context, how do they make a disciple? And what one is, if somebody wants to get connected with navigators, church ministries, what's the best. Best way would be to contact their local staff person.
If they know them, , or email us at navigators church ministries, and it's actually ncm@navigators.org. ncm@navigators.org is the easiest way to get ahold of us. Thanks, Dan. I appreciate the time and all the support that you give the practitioners podcast. Tony opening question for you today. Are you ready for it?
I mean, I guess let's go. What pops into your mind? When I talk about a tool, a tool, the first tool that pops in my mind is a level, a level, a level. Why would, why would a level pop into your mind, dude, you should be in my marriage. , we, so for Christmas is, you know, as we record this Christmas has recently passed.
And so we got some things that we need to hang up on the wall. And I am convinced that I have the ability to see what's straight and what's not straight. My wife is convinced that I do not. And so we may or may not have gotten into a somewhat of a funny discussion. Some people might call it an argent about whether or not I need a level.
And, , and. So just, just so we've got closure on this story. That's great. Yeah. I was going to ask, so what did the level of proof, the level proved that I was, , like a quarter of a bubble off. Okay, so you both as a win? Yes. Yes, because I was okay with the quarter of bubble and she was not okay with a quarter bubble.
And so, So I'm not allowed to hang things without a level. That's what, and, and so that's. Yeah, no, it's interesting that you would bring up the word tools because, you know, I know that we both love to talk about disciple-making and we've had this conversation before because, , tools is something that, that you've introduced into our relationship as it pertains to disciple-making before.
And, , let's just say. It wasn't well received by, by me necessarily. How, how would you describe my reaction when you brought up tools and disciple-making yeah, I would say hostile, , obstinate, maybe aggressive at times. Yeah. Is that fair? What do you think? I mean, abstinent for sure. Here's the problem?
Here's the problem. Is that what we were talking about? Disciple-making if I recall, when we started talking about tools and you said Tony, like, , you've got to have something to pass on. These tools are important, et cetera, et cetera. And it just seemed like more. And so I was not okay with the idea of having to memorize something else to give to someone.
Right. I think if I remember too, I mean, part of it was that because of who you are and how God's designed you, you were engaging the disciples that you were working with really well already. Right. Yes. Out of, I would even say at a deep level, like, yeah. And so it didn't feel like a tool was going to take me any deeper or more personal connection.
Now here's the problem. And this is where you converted me on tools are really, God did not, not you, but God, do you see, you know, I'm trying to say, , When I asked this, this guy that I was discipling to go and do the same, which is, you know, what we do when we're making disciples. , he could not replicate my personality to develop the depth in the relationship.
So he, he needed a tool. And as a disciple maker, I didn't give him a tool. Yeah. And, and that was, I mean, honestly, that was really. Defeating and not just because I, I wanted to be right and I wanted you to be wrong. , but it was defeating because, , when I started to really look at it in the scripture, what I could see is that Jesus used tools and Paul used tools.
And, , and I, wasn't doing a great job of. Pouring into the guy that I was trying to disciple at the time was something that could be beneficial. So I wasn't, you know, in a weird way, I wasn't discipling him in Jesus's image. I was discipling him in my own and that's just never going to work. Right. Yeah, well, that's per se sharing that.
I mean, that's, that's hard thing to share. It's a harder thing to live. Right. And I think that a lot of disciple makers live that out and just don't have the awareness that that's what's happening. Right. Because if they haven't been introduced to. The importance of disciple-making tools and they often don't know that that's missing when they go and ask somebody, Hey, why don't you go do this with somebody else now?
And that other person is like, what? Nope. I could never do what you're doing with somebody else. So yeah. Before we get into this too deep, maybe you should take a minute and define really what a tool is for us. Yeah. Okay. So let's think about it this way. If, if tools are something that help a builder help somebody do the work, right?
So tool is not, what does the work a tool helps somebody else do the work. And so with disciple-making tools, it's similar tools, disarming tools help a disciple maker do the work, but the disciple maker still needs expertise and judgment. To know what situations the tool applies in and how to use them in those situations and, , you know, timing on it as well.
, another way that I like to think about it is for a disciple maker tools should become an extension of ourselves that help us accomplish the job or the task of making a disciple. And so. One of the, I guess, complicating factors though Tony and all this is that a lot of times in our culture today, people think of curricul or books, , as tools.
And I see why they do that, but it doesn't fit for me because most of the time when disciple makers use those, they're not using them as a way to help them accomplish the goal. They're using it as something to do the work for them. Does that make any sense? Be kind of unclear. What do you mean? Yeah. Yeah.
So for example, , when you use, , a book, right, we choose to use a curriculum that may be in a workbook. You can decide to let you know, Hey, we're going to walk along, whatever the book says and you miss the relational part of the disciple-making. Right. And so if you're dependent upon a book, then when the book runs out, Right.
And the pool, the timing too, right? We think about the carpenter model. Like if we're building a house, , if a curricul is a lot, like the house, you have something to do with the tools, but when the house has done building, what do you do now? Well, if you're handing out tools instead of curricul, then you could just go to the next house or go to the next event, or, and hopefully, ideally you go to the next person that you're going to decide.
Yeah. So how would you distinguish a tool from other things Tony? Like maybe put some more? Yeah. Yeah. I would say that a tool is something that we can pass on and it's not a spiritual game. Oh, so, so a spiritual gift, for example, one of my spiritual gifts is teaching and that is probably what helps me, , what helped me get to a really deep place with a guy that I'm discipling.
, the problem is, is you can't pass that on. I don't, I, God gave, gives us our spiritual gifts. I can't give that to someone else. Right. , and we're going to talk about some, some actual tools in a minute, but a good disciple-making tool is something that I can put in someone else's hand and will work the same way in their hand, as it does in my head.
Hmm. Now we may not, we may not be, we may not have mastered the tool at the same way. Right. But we both, it works in a, in a very fundamental way. It works the same way in both of our hands. Yeah. I like that. It's kinda like a hammer. Right. So I recently had, , our house re-roofed and looking at those guys with their hammers.
I mean, I can, I can drive a nail, but you put me next to those guys. I cannot drive a nail. I am an absolute beginner. , and so, but yet we both know how to use the tool. So I think that kind of speaks to the mastery sort of aspect, but, but the tool works the same way for both. Fundamentally the tool works the same way for both of you.
And the tool will go with you, wherever job you're doing next, or whatever person you're discipling next, it, the tool has to be applicable in order for it to, in my opinion, in order for it to count as a tool, it has to be applicable to every person that you're going to use. Yeah. To use it with in terms of disciple-making tools.
Yeah. And I think we see that a little bit in Jesus and Paul. I mean, w what do you think, what do you see in their ministry that are tools that are, are passing on? Yeah. I would say that the primary tool that we see for both of them is the word. Right. And so I think, and what propose that for disciple makers, the primary tool that we should be equipped with and use in our disciple-making relationships is the word of God.
And so just to. Kind of put some scripture behind that. So for Jesus, he says in John 17 verse 14 and verse 17, verse 14, and he says about the disciples, he's praying to God, that's a high priestly prayer. I have given them your word. And then in verse 17, he says, sanctify them by the truth. Your word is the truth.
And so we see him and we see him constantly in his ministry delivering the word, wherever he goes, and that's kind of his primary tool and discipling. And then with Paul, we see a similar thing and he says in second Timothy three, 16 and 17, he says, all scripture is God-breathed and useful for teaching rebuking, correcting and training and righteousness.
So at the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. And so even at the end there, when he's talking about being thoroughly equipped, Well, they're being equipped with that primary tool, , which is the word. So those are, those are what I see as kind of the primary for each of them, but they certainly use other tools.
, what do you see as kind of other tools that they've used? I mean, one of the tools that Jesus has used, , frequently and, , It's probably pretty well known for his parables and metaphors. Right? When he, when he preaches, he preaches in parables, he's able to do that. It's super, , you know, we can tell those same parables.
If I say mustard seed to someone who's, who's read this story. They know exactly what that means. I, you know, Paul also use his. His own example, right? First Corinthians 11 one, right? Like follow me as I follow Christ. Like, and we talked through some of that idea about his life is one tool. So contextualization of the message and what that looks like.
I think it's important for us to, to understand here that, , the word as the primary tool is different than curricul, because we understand it to be the divine word of God. Hmm. Right. And so it's not just a, it's not just a good book, right? And this is, this is where standing on scripture is super important.
It's not just a good book. This is the divine word of God. And so we believe scripture to be true and God breathed. And so, , that's what makes it different. And if you're always dependent upon a book, that's not the scripture, you're subject to the interpretation of the office. Yeah. And that can be really problematic in the disciple-making, , process, right?
Yeah. I like that. And the word of God's living and active. Right. And so that, that verse in Hebrews four of how it penetrates soul and spirit separates joints and marrow. And so it gets into us and gets into those that we're seeking to disciple with a power and in a way that no other book or no other words on the face of the earth has the ability to do.
And so I totally agree with what you're saying there. , the other thing that we should mention about tools is they, they help us engage and they help us equip, , cycling. Right. And so, , we've talked about the, , the disciple makers scale, right? And so with the scale, there's some people that are naturally relational and primarily relational.
Other people are naturally intentional and that's easier for them. Well, for both sides, for those who are more relational, it helps them equip those they're discipling for those who are more intentional, it helps them engage in a different way. , and for those who are receiving it, there are different types of learning, right?
Visual learners, auditory learners, kinesthetic learners. And when we have a tool that we introduce, it really helps, , engage those different learning styles and learning preferences. Yeah, I think that this is an important, a really important note because as I'm a relational disciple maker, if you haven't guessed, and I think we've talked about it before, , Justin tends to be more intentional.
And so the problem that I was running into when I wasn't sold out on tools is that I was discipling and intentional disciple maker as a relational one. And it was almost like we were speaking two different languages. , because it's just, it was it wasn't native to that thought process. And so, , the, the other part that's super important is that I can get so relational that I can almost create an idol out of the relationship.
That's not moving them forward in Christ image. And so let me, let me say that another way is I can get so, so. Into the idea of getting to know someone's story and their heart and all of that is important, but I have to love them enough. Like Jesus loves us enough not to leave them there. Okay. And so, , it, it needs to be a river and not a lake disciple-making needs to be a river and not a lake.
And I can build a pretty deep lake that's fun and engaging and everything, but it's not going anywhere. Right. Tools are really good. Especially for the relational disciple maker to create intentional movement. Mm. Yeah, I love that. Good. Well, Tony, let's move into kind of a practical tool that we can pass on today and equip people with today.
, and this tool is called the disciple makers loop. And for me, this has been a tremendous kind of pocket guide. To how I need to help the person that I'm discipling. And so it kind of goes like this on a local level. What do I do when I'm discipling somebody? And a lot of times new and young disciple makers have that question.
Well, what am I actually going to do with this person? And this tool helps us remember, well, these are the basic things that you're doing over and over again with different topics and different things. And so the tool is this. So if you visualize in your mind a circle and we're going to put different tags or labels around the circle, and that's where the loop is.
And so at the top, it starts with teach him what? So, whatever the topic is. So if we're just thinking about prayer, , for instance, for a disciple, all right, well, what is prayer? So we're going to teach that next. We're going to tell him why. Why is prayer important? What does it accomplish? What is, you know, why does God ask us to pray, , all those sorts of things next, we're going to show him how.
Well, how do we pray? It's one thing to know what it is, why it's important, but we need to show him how, and it doesn't say, tell him how it says, show him how. And so I need to pray with him, you know, after we've done that, I needed to pray with him to show him how to pray and, you know, we can learn as we do together and then the next one is get him started.
So. All right. So, okay. Now you've understood about prayer. You've seen how to do it. You know why it's important. So in the coming week or couple of weeks until we get together again, , what does it look like for you to be praying? And so asking him to set a goal? Well, Maybe five minutes a day. I could pray.
That would be a great starting point. , and so the next one is, get him going. So this is, or keep him going, sorry, get him started, keep them going. , and so the next time, how'd it go. And maybe a month later, two months later, Hey, how's your prayer life going? And so we're trying to keep the, keep the ball rolling here.
And then finally help him pass it on. And so, you know, like you just said, Tony, we're not trying to build a lake. We're trying to build a river, , that moves through one person into other people. And so whatever tool we share, whatever topic we're talking about, we want him to share it with others. And so just to hit those headlines again, The loop goes like this, teach him what, tell him why show him how get him started, keep him going, help him pass it on.
And it probably takes five or 10 minutes to memorize those tags. And once you memorize the tags, I mean, this tool is super simple to remember, and to be able to, , kind of guide you and guide somebody else. If you're teaching somebody else how to disciple another person, but again, teach him why. Tell him how.
Tell him. All right, let's start over. Teach him what, tell him why show him, how get him started, keep him going, help him pass it on. And the other thing I love about this tool, Tony, is it reminds us that the goal isn't academic understanding. The goal is surrendered obedience and the life of the person that you're working with and in the lives of others.
So the disciple makers loop is kind of a tool that we wanted to share with you guys today as a, Hey, this is an example. And as we move forward, , we're going to have tool time, these sort of episodes, every so often where we're going to expose and share with you a tool that we have found valuable and that we use.
And we've kind of share the context that we use it in. , so Tony, what do you think response to disciple makers loop? I know you've heard it before, but. Well, I love the simplicity of it and that it just really creates a roadmap that anyone can follow. So again, we want to check this against all the definition that we've used as a tool.
Does this apply with everyone? Could everyone get the idea that we're going to teach him? What, tell them, why show them, how get him started, keep him going, help them pass it on. Yes. Check marks with everyone. Is it applicable? , as an, as an extension of who I am as a disciple. Yep. I can use that. They can use that.
Anyone can use this. Right? Does it, does it model the same kind of idea that Jesus did, right? Cause we want to do Jesus style. Disciple-making did Jesus teach him? What did Jesus tell him? Why did Jesus show them? How did Jesus get them started? Did Jesus keep them going? Did Jesus help him pass it on? Yes.
Yes. That's what makes these tools so beautiful. Now I think that. One of the things, and this is the big takeaway for today. Discipling well means using tools. You can do it without tools, but you're making the jobs so much harder than it has to be. Take it from a guy who knows, right? If you want to disciple well and reproduce well in a spiritual sense, it requires tools.
Make it easy on yourself. So, , the action step. Learn and share the disciple makers loop with someone, right? The best way to know that you've learned something is to share it with someone else. And honestly, just share it with anyone, share it with your dog. I don't care who you share it with. Say it out loud to another living organism and see how you do.
We've put it in the show notes. There'll be in there. You can jot it down. You can create the circle you can put in the tags. , I promise that once you get used to using tools, you won't want to go back. So as always, we are so thankful for our time together today. We're thankful for you being on this journey with us and your commitment to discipling others.
The best compliment you can give us, leave a rating review and maybe share this episode with somebody you're discipling somebody you want to disciple a pastor. Who's passionate about disciple-making every, , every time you share the episode, it means the world. And, , and we just appreciate it. So thank you so much.
And we look forward to connecting with you guys real soon.