But a question. I asked pastors frequently to kind of assess where they are with relationships, with those who don't know Jesus. I say when's the last time someone that didn't know, Jesus invited you to do something socially, really.
Hey everyone. Welcome back to the practitioners podcast. We're applying Jesus' style disciple-making to every day. Life. This episode is powered by navigators church ministries, which focuses on helping churches, make disciples who can make disciples for more information, check out www.navigatorschurchministries.org.
Justin, my friend. How are you? This beautiful. Afternoon. I had, I had to look to see if it was morning or afternoon. It's great. Kind of stands out today. That is always good in the winter in Ohio. I mean, honestly, I looked outside and I was like, is it morning or afternoon? But man, I'm really happy to see the sun.
And then I almost forgot we were recording a podcast. So the level of professionalism here has no bounds or you go to great start. , but yeah, no, I, you know, I was thinking. New year 2021, , the work that you do with pastors, I'm kind of curious, you know, what are you seeing with pastors in COVID and in the new year?
And, , I mean, it feels like at least, you know, from behind my desk, it it's, , it's stranger now than it ever has been before. Yes. Yeah. The challenges continue right. In terms of facing the pandemic and how the church can continue to move forward. , Tony, as you know, I, I help pastors in disciple-making and helping them figure that out and apply it and et cetera, et cetera.
And so, , one of the things that I've been hearing a lot lately, Is a frustration from pastures, finding people that they feel like are ready to be discipled, or, you know, like you, and I might say fat people, people who are faithful available and teachable, and that's something I've been chewing on a little bit that, that this challenge of finding people who are ready, who want more, who are hungry for more of Jesus, has an end to become more like Jesus, , is something that pastors are really facing and.
, I think one of the challenges that they have as, as ministry professionals is this idea of, , making new disciples. Right? And so a lot of pastors as they start to engage, they're just engaging those who are already in their church and that doesn't encapsulate the whole of what we're trying to do.
And we talk about making disciples. In fact, it's a, it's a relatively, , segmented. Part of the call to make disciples and administry professionals' lives. To be honest, a lot of them have segmented their lives in such a way that they're really not engaged with people who don't already know. Jesus. Yeah.
Well, why do you think that happens? I mean like, why do you think pastors are more likely to talk to people who, who already know Jesus than people who do know Jesus when our job is to share the message of Jesus? Well, I think part of what they think of is themselves as a shepherd, which is right in biblical.
And so a lot of them would say, well, my main job is to shepherd the sheep that God has already given me. And you know, if new sheep come in and I'll help them too. But really it's their job to go out there, being the people in the church, already their job to go out and to share the message with others.
, which really, you know, I know that you and I, Tony don't agree with that, , perspective in and of itself. , being a shepherd is a part of the job, but, , like you said, it's to share the message of Christ anywhere and everywhere that we are. But, , ministry professional, especially pastors, their lives are so full.
And they become, , you know, just hyper-focused on the church and helping the church grow and helping the people there grow that. One of the first things that gets kicked out in the back door of their life is. Relationships with non-Christians or even moving towards those who don't know Christ to be in relationship with them.
Yeah. I think it's just a super interesting, cause it's, you know, you kind of mentioned this, right. It's partly an intentionality issue, but it's also partly a, a lifestyle issue. And in the conversations that I've been having recently have a lot to do with big tech. I mean, as we're recording this big tech is, is.
Making the news headlines all over the world, because they're talking about what we can and cannot say on their platform. Right. And I'll save, I'll save the free speech debate or not debate, you know, for another, , another podcast to cover. Yeah. , but I was recently meeting with somebody. who's. You know, Tony, are you nervous about what big tech kicking people off their platforms does for churches and sharing the gospel?
And in my response was like not nervous. I'm excited. Like I I'm super. Oh yeah. Tell us more, tell us more. , really excited. And, and here's why, because, because, , big tech platforms are megaphones. , megaphones for whatever message that we feel called to share. And as, as pastors, there are so many good pastors out there who are, who are doing good work of the gospel and they're sharing it on their megaphone.
But guess what? We don't make disciples using a megaphone, right. We make disciples using a whisper, right. And when you're, when you're close enough, as, as you sometimes told me is you got to get close enough to them in order to smell them. You know, you got to get close enough to him to do life. And, and I believe that as we think about the great revival that's coming in, disciple-making, , it will require us to close the distance between you.
And the person you want to disciple and not just like, that's not just tech-wise right. That is, , that's physical space, distance. Like you have to do life mean you and I are both passionate about the local communities we live in because that's where we believe the first pool of people that we're going to disciple is going to come from it's that we're closing the physical space.
And while I love social media, you can follow me at TW. On Instagram. , I love it as much as anyone it's it gives a false sense of relational connection. That's just not true. That's just not true. Another thing though, that does Tony, is it, it divides us from those who aren't like us, right? And so if we, if we all looked at our following on Facebook or Instagram or Twitter is it's most likely people who are similar in age, similar in education, similar in political affiliation and views.
And so in some ways it isolates us and segments us from those who are different. Right. And, and, and the funny part is about these big tech companies, the way the platform is designed, it's designed to help you, , meet people who are, who are like. Right, which is not the mission. The mission of the gospel is to help share the gospel with people who aren't like you.
And, , you know, , one of my favorite scriptures of all time, right, is Matthew 28, 19 through 20. And it says, Jesus speaking, the last words that he shares all authority in heaven and earth has been given. Therefore go and make disciples, listen to this part of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit and teaching them to obey everything I've commanded you and surely I'm with you always to the very end of the age.
I love, I love the words. All nations. I love and I love teach and I, I love obey, right. Because it just, it's such a relational. Go and make relationships with people. You don't know who don't look like you, who don't vote like you, but who need Jesus, just like you. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, that telling me that correlates really well to, to ax, right.
And the last words that we see, Jesus speaking, and in acts, and it's the same scene, right. It's to the disciples. And so, you know, it's PR it's through, it's written by different people and that's why there's some subtle difference there. But he says in acts one eight, the last words he gives to disciples and in acts, which is Luke is the same author, right?
Or the gospel of Luke and acts, , it says this, it says, but you will receive power when the holy spirit comes on you and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. And so just that idea that you're talking about, that, that Jesus is really telling these guys.
Hey, your job, what I'm asking you to go and do after I leave here is not just to stay in your holy huddle. It's not just to stay with those that we've already been talking to. What you need to go do is go out. Go out to others that are unlike you and for the Samaritans, those that you really dislike and have a deep cultural, , you know, almost hatred and maybe it wasn't hatred.
I mean, it was very, very strong. , you need to go out and build relationships with them and share who I am with them. And so, you know, this idea that, , the way our culture is moving to segment us more and more only with those that we are like, and similar to, as disciples of Jesus, we really have to resist that and to move the other way, right?
Because what's happening in our culture. And what I'm seeing in the churches repeatedly is there are people and pastors who they are down that road quite a bit, and they don't have any relationships with those who are nonbelievers. And, you know, they might know their neighbor. They might wave to them, you know, across the, the lawn or something like that.
But a question I ask pastors frequently to kind of assess where they are with relationships, with those who don't know Jesus. I say when's the last time someone that didn't know, Jesus invited you to do something social. Ooh. And I bet those answers are, , , well, they may not answer at all because most, most of my friends who are pastors and that is, I mean, those are my guys, right?
Like I have a group of guys that I hang out with and we all pastors and like that, that's a tough, , that's a tough question to answer. Yeah, there's a lot of silence and some squirming, but I ask it that way because we cannot manipulate that. Right. Because if I'm in a friendship with somebody, there's some invitation going both ways.
And if I'm just friends with somebody, but they don't count me as a friend, then maybe I'm the one always walking over there. Or maybe I'm the one calling all the time and internally, maybe they're trying to avoid, but they're, you know, just socially are trying to be polite. But when we have invitation going both ways, so we know we have some sort of friendship going.
When we look at Jesus's life, we see him moving out to those that didn't fit. , Those that he would naturally be expected to hang out with as a rabbi. Right? I mean, he, he went to, , house parties with people that were known to be sinners. He related with people who were known prostitutes and, you know, he caught a lot of heat for that, but that's just how he lived his life.
And Tony, I know you, I mean, you mentioned that those are your guys, but they are, but you also have other guys, right. That are outside that circle and that. That you engage with and are really good friends with the answer to this question is earlier this month, somebody who was an non Jesus follower invited me and my family over for a, an event.
And it was wonderful and it was great. And you know what, we, we did talk about the church a little bit, mostly because they had some questions about, , you know, the political landscape and the church. But the thing is, is that if we want to get really practical, You know, in order to, to create, , non non-churched friends, right?
Not non Christian friends. We have to be intentional about putting ourselves in non church situations. Hmm. Yeah. You know, how do you do this and in your life, what have you done for me? It's I take a passion that's outside of Jesus and I, I purposely try to interject my life in Jesus, into it. Sport sports is the, is really the nber one thing for me.
So I've got, , I mean, you know, Justin, you know, my family, I've got two boys and a princess and all three of them are super active in things. And so, , So when it comes to my boys, I am, I coached them for a really long time, or I help I'll do whatever I can to help the team. Or if there's an opportunity to coach, I'll do that.
If there's an opportunity to keep the book in basketball, like, you know, before I was coaching basketball, I'll do that. Anything I can do to help that people that. Are just outside of my normal purview. I want to do that. I want to be intentional about that. And then I bring my relationship with Jesus everywhere I go.
And so people are like, man, what ministry are you doing? I'm like, well, I'm coaching football. That's part of my ministry. And they're like, well, why not? I'm like, listen, I'm not in there beating people over the head with a Bible. I'm just being me. And I'm praying that my relationship with Jesus reflects wherever I.
Hmm. And that's there ability piece there for me, because it would not be uncommon for me to yell at a football game. I'm I'm a very loud boy. I mean, you can listen to this podcast, you know, like I know I'm so quiet. , no, I get passionate. Right. But yeah, so I have to be careful sometimes because everything I do reflects my witness and you're like, Tony, what's your favorite ministry?
It's absolutely. My football team. Hmm, you know, it's my football family. That's my favorite ministry during the season. And, and is there a cost associated with that? Absolutely. It means that during football season, I can't do a Wednesday night Bible study, even though, you know, prior to me getting here, the church had had one for a gazillion years and when people came to me in the church and was like, Hey, , why aren't you doing a Wednesday night Bible study, pastor Joni?
And I was like, well, I'm really trying to get the church to grow. Right. And it doesn't grow with the people that are already here. Right. It grows with the people that are not here. And, and you know what? I very rarely invite someone to church. That's not the goal here. The goal isn't to invite people into my life and then God will do the rest.
With some intentionality on my part, you know, I, I bring Jesus with me into those relationships. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So what, what I hear you saying is that as you are trying to minister and, and be a pastor, your, your commitment is not just to bring people in right to the church, to a meeting, to a gathering, to a service.
, what you are committed to is going right. Right. Going out to them. And so talk to me as a, as a pastor. Kind of what, what model does that, , represent? Or how did you get there? You know, more about that. Yeah. So I think, you know, it it's, if we think about this, there are, there are models for churches.
There's one called the attractional model. Right. Which is like, Hey, I'm going to build a, if you build it, they will come. One is called the missional model, which is where the church is. The body will go out and serve. And, , I call this the disciple-making model, which is I'm going to go make relationships with people and I'm going to build disciples.
And as I build disciples, I believe the church will always be full, right. Because disciples want to follow and worship Jesus. Right. I mean, you know, and what we've done is we built a better foundation there, and it's not like I very rarely believe that we have to, to create a come to us model. Right. I don't come to us model, but that's not the model that Jesus used.
Jesus used a go to them model. Right. So go to them, go be Jesus in the community, a reflection of Jesus in the community. And, and I found the best success I've had. In reaching the local community has been when I leave my office and go to them. And it's really worked. What about you, man? I mean, I know that you're passionate about this as well.
Yeah. Similar. I love what you're saying because you know, a disciple-making model or I think of it as an incarnational model that we not only bring a message. We are the message. Right. And so, as I'm engaging pastors, I'm trying to help them see, listen, if you want people who are hungry to grow and who really want others to know him, then you got to model that, right.
You have to be out there and showing what you want them to become. And the difference, you know, between comfortable Christianity and costly Christianity is really reproduction, right? It's this idea that I'm not just sitting here for my own. Growth, or I'm not just looking around for someone to disciple who already knows Jesus.
My goal is to help others that don't know him. Become infant disciples so that then I can disciple them to help them come to maturity. Right. And you know, like you I'm similar, right. So I'm trying to go out and where, , I engage a lot of non-believers is a similar in coaching and my kids' sports or in my neighborhood.
Interacting with neighbors and talking with them and trying to find ways to care for them. , and the result of that has been over the years, I've been in relationship with a lot of different non-Christians. And when I find out what they're passionate about, if I haven't met them on a field or something like that, it's just neighborhood.
I try to figure out what are you passionate about? And then I try to get involved. Hey, would you teach me about that? I've never done that before, you know, and man people love to share their passions with others, right. And so that's been super helpful for me in terms of engaging, , just nonbelievers and friendships that then lead to.
Greater and deeper conversations. So, and what I love about this model, Justin, and this is specifically for pastors and church leaders, and I've talked to so many pastors and church leaders who are freaking out about COVID in church, you know, an in-person worship shutdowns that the model, the incarnational model, or, you know, this go-to model, this discipleship model.
It's COVID proof, right? It's COVID proof, right? Like there's, COVID cannot shut down intentional relationships in your community. Some of the people that I've talked to are like, man COVID has forced me to get to know my neighbors. Cause I keep walking by them two times, three times a day. Right. And I'm like, you know, this is the gift.
This is the gift of, of COVID like this, because now where we can't do our large gatherings, right. We can't do a unit. Most of the Sunday school classes that are being taught here at restoration have been suspended indefinitely. Right? So now we're, we're going back to, we're going back to the book of acts.
We're going to, you know, acts chapter two, right? 42 through 47. They met together with glad and sincere hearts, enjoying the favor of, of all God's people teaching and breaking bread together. Like I'm like, this is it. This is the church. This is the as the disciples making model. And then, and because of that, you get the last part verse 47 and the Lord added to their nber daily.
Those who were being. Yeah, right. Because these intentional relationships lead to that, right. They lead to an encounter with Jesus that they're introduced to through us and through our caring and our loving on them. And so, yeah. So let's get to our takeaway. We're run out of time here. So take away. Jesus' last words means that ministry among non-Christians is essential.
It's not optional in the life of a disciple. So ministry to non-Christians is essential. It's not optional. If you're to call yourself a disciple, that is an essential part of what it means to be a disciple. Tony, how about our action step? Do something this week. To strengthen an existing friendship, , with a skeptic or non-Christian or build a new friendship, go knock on somebody's door and introduce yourself to your neighbors, right?
Like get out there, be relational, , do whatever you can to make sure that you connect with the people around you because, , there's, there's very fruitful and incredible things that God wants to do with you and your neighborhood. And, , I'm, I'm believing it. In Jesus's name. So, , yeah. Thank you guys so much for being here today.
, thanks so much for subscribing leaving a rating review, Justin and I read every single one of them, and we're just incredibly thankful. , for those of you who've been on this journey, do us a favor, share this episode with a friend, , maybe share it with a pastor or church leader or somebody who you know, is passionate about disciple-making.
we're praying that God will continue to use this platform for incredible things. Thank you guys so much. And we look forward to talking to you guys next week.