That is, we have a different strengths that we bring to the table. we can appreciate the whole a lot more.
Hey everyone. Welcome back to the practitioners podcast, where our goal is to apply Jesus' style disciple-making to every day life. This episode is powered by navigators church ministries, where we focus on helping churches, make disciples who can make disciples for more information, check out www.navigatorschurchministries.org, Tony, how are we doing today?
you know, I'm doing pretty good, man. I'm ready for 2021. To get things back to normal. Like I'm, I'm, my kids are going back to school tomorrow on the day that we record this and I'm super excited to get them out of the house. I mean, to get them back into community. That's what I meant. Right. There you go back to normal.
Right. Remember, remember when normal was different than it was today? Like, do you remember. Remember when we, you could go somewhere and like be with people and going places and just, I miss going places so much. I need people. What is your favorite part about going places? so one of my favorite things about going places is watching people like I love to people watch.
And my favorite person to people watch with is my wife, because we see the world so differently. And on one side of the room, this happened a lot. When, you know, when we go to parties or like Christmas parties or cocktail parties or whatever, and she would sit on one side of the room with her friends and I would sit on the other side of the room and then the drive home would be this epic conversation about.
Who and what we saw and how it played out and whether or not that was a good thing or bad thing. And my wife is like the one person you can always tell me when I'm super awkward, which if you hang out with me long enough, I can be very awkward. Cause I, I don't have a great sense of personal boundaries.
but, but I love the complete picture that it gives us. When we look at, a room together. And interestingly enough, that's kind of what we're talking about today when it comes to disciple-making and I adjusted, I would love for you to share a little bit about, the scale of disciple-making as it relates.
To how we make disciples, right? Yeah. So disciple-making scale is, it's kind of that idea, right? That is we have a different strengths that we bring to the table. we can appreciate the whole a lot more. Right. And so the scale looks at two sides of basically people that some people are naturally intentional, so they're more strategic.
They think things through before they get into a situation. And that's kind of the way they approach life normally. And then the other side of the scale is relational. And so these people aren't as strategic, you know, they're just connecting with others and engaging them and really just delving down into the relationship.
And so, as we think about a disciple-making relationship, you know, having both of these things present in the relationship is super simple. How, how do we, how do we. Jump into the idea of knowing where we are in the scale. Cause I, you and I have talked about this idea before, but I think prior to meeting you, you could have said, Tony, are you intentional or relational?
I would have been like, I'm an extrovert. What does that mean? And I think the more that I've studied this and the more that you and I have talked to him, Is that it's a lot more than just being introvert extrovert, isn't it? Yes. Yeah. In fact it doesn't, it doesn't necessarily follow those labels, introvert extrovert.
I mean, a lot of times it will. So the introverts are more likely to be intentional. Extroverts are more likely to be relational, but you know, there's some extroverts who fall on the intentional side of the scale and vice versa. And so how we assess where we are. A lot of times, it's just looking at who we are as people and how we engage others and how we engage ministry.
And so Tony, let me just share with you kind of the way that I found where I was on this scale. And really prior to this, I'd never heard of this scale. Didn't know anything about it, but I was down in Texas on my first ministry assignment at 22 years old. And I was paired with a guy. We were planting a campus ministry and another guy.
And then we had two girls on the team as well, all about the same age. And, one of the things that I believed at that time in my life is the better I knew God, and the better I knew the word, the more I'd be able to impact people for the kingdom. And so, you know, I was heavily engaged in Bible study, scripture, memory, et cetera, et cetera.
Now, my teammate was kind of the opposite of me. I mean, very much. and he would say things to me like, man, Justin, I wish I knew the Bible the way that you did. I wish I knew the word the way that you did. And so he was reflecting back to me. Okay. Well, I'm a little bit ahead of him in these areas, but then a couple months into the ministry.
he had all these people dropping by our apartment, wanting to spend time with him. And I had a couple of people that if I chased them down, then they would spend time with me. And so I really had to wrestle like, why is this the case? Interesting. Right. And so as I process that I realized. I was really deficient in a whole side of what it meant to minister effectively.
And later on, I tied it into disciple making is it's the same thing is that I was really deficient in relational skills. And so that's how I became aware of kind of my weakness on the scale has really heavy on being intentional. but not so great on relational. So how about, how about you what's been your experience?
Well, for me, I tend to lean a little bit more relationship. And the truth is, is that, I have always been able to talk to people and that's not a, that's not a scary thing for me. It's not an issue for me. And, and a lot of the friends that I hang out with before getting into ministry were also super relational.
They were, we were all doing sales together, right? And so like, Hey, a bunch of salesmen in the room and we just get going. And what I realized when I got into ministry and I started working with a broader base. I would say something like, Hey, just go in there and talk to them. And people would look at me like I had three heads because they're like, what am I going to say?
I'm like, well, whatever just comes to your heart. And they're like, no, not doing that. That's not how this is going to work. And that was like, what do you mean is not how it's going to work? Like, this is super easy. We can do this. And, it wasn't until a couple years in the ministry that I realized. Not everyone is just comfortable talking to complete strangers without a plan.
Amen. Yeah, it doesn't that doesn't necessarily make me an extrovert, even though I am an extrovert. Right. It just means that I'm, I'm super comfortable in a relationship enough that if whatever you're going to give me, I feel comfortable rolling with. And I think that's the relational side of me. Yeah, I think that's the relational side.
So how about with, with intentionality though? So if you're heavy on that side of the scale, how, how has intentionality come to bear in your framework and in your awareness within disciple-making? Yeah. So here's the problem with us, relational people. If you're listening to this and you're like, ah, Tony, that resonates I'm relational.
The problem is, is that when you try to disciple someone, who's not relational. Or who's not as relational as you are. You end up leaving them short staffed. Right. We we've talked in previous podcasts about tools and, it, it's very similar. This, this lines up very similar to that discussion because if you're, if you don't have a plan, then you're going to fail.
And that's, that's what ends up happening to me when I solely make disciples out of my relational side. So if I don't. My intentional side and develop a plan of intentionality of purpose. Then I ended up walking into a relationship and I might get a really good friend out of it, but I never pushed someone to the place where they're comfortable, reproducing other disciples, because I wasn't intentional in the end game, right.
That I have an old mentor used to say, if you don't know where you're going, every road will take you there. And the idea is that this, lack of planning. Ends up leaving you lost. Hmm. So a lot of, a lot of disciples who never go on to make disciples, they don't become disciple makers. One of the most frequent things that we hear is that.
I just don't feel equipped. I don't know what to do. Right. And so maybe that's part of it too, that if we're only relational with people, then those who are not relational, right. Who are more on the intentional side, they, they need that equipping. Now the relational is needed that equipping too. But the intentionals feel that right, because it's like your story.
No, I'm not just going to walk into this room and start talking to people. I need to know what to say. I need to be equipped with something right. To do with them. It's super funny. Even how we make this podcast is a great example of the differences of the scale, right? Because, Justin and I, we love this podcast.
We love all of you. We put a lot of time and effort into it, and we're both passionate about the topic. I would be completely comfortable. Coming into an episode and just me and you talking for 20 minutes, right? Yep. And that's not what we do now, so, because I would not be in and it would not go well from my end.
Right. Because I'm not just going to come up with things that I feel like fit the topic and fit what we're doing, in a focused manner. I mean, that's just me. Right. And so what I do is I, I like think through, all right, well, Let's talk about this topic and here's a couple things I want to make sure we include.
And what do you think? And so we kind of have this kind of pre-game conversation and before, and it really makes, it makes me better in the sense of that we come, we know where we're going. We know where we're going to end before we start. And then in the middle of the podcast, I throw in my typical. You know, interruption of thought.
And, and I think that I, I hope my prayer is that, that makes you a little bit better. Yeah, absolutely. And so it makes the whole much better. Right? So kind of like your opening illustration with your wife and going places and how you have different perspectives. It really, when we bring the whole to bear, the picture is more full and more complete.
And when we do that in disciple-making the same thing is true, right? Yeah. You know, to further that point, if we look at the life of Jesus, because again, we, we always want to take this back to applying Jesus style disciple-making to everyday life. How did you see intentionality and relationally in Jesus's ministry?
In the scriptures? Yeah. So, let me talk about intentional and then I want to hear about relational from you. So one of the ways that I see Jesus being intentional, I mean, from the very beginning, he has a plan, right? So Matthew four 19, we've talked about on this podcast before Jesus says, come follow me and I will make you fishers of men.
So even from the start from that invitation, he's saying, no, I have an end game in mind for you. And if you want to come with me, this is where we're going, and this is where we're heading. And so that's one, I mean, there's, there's lots of them. I mean, when we see him sending out the 12 and Luke nine or the 72 and Luke 10, he sends him out with really specific instructions on what they're to do, what they're to take.
Who there to stay with. I mean, he has very clearly thought through a plan that he is sending them into and asking them to, to move, move into the plan, to live out the plan. Then they come back and he'd debriefs it with him. Right. You know, collects. The experiences that they've had. And so when we look at Jesus' life with an antenna up for intentionality, we can see it throughout the gospels.
But how about relationship? How do, how do we see a relational nature of Christ? I think the very nature of how he made disciples lends itself to the re the relational aspect, right? He, he did life with these men, right. When you think about the 12 disciples, You know, John 15, what does that verse 14 through 17.
Jesus says you are my friends, right? He's, he's constantly retreating with the 12. He's going places with them. He's explaining the parables and further depth as if he's invested in them like spiritual children, right in your rabbi to teacher. I love Matthew 26, 36. Jesus is in the garden and he could be there by himself if he wanted.
You know, he knows the task before him, but he, he, he looks at the 12th and he says, come sit here while I pray as if to say, I need you in my life. And, and I'm, I want you in my life and I'm relating to you in my moment of need because we're family, we do this together and I love man. I love that imagery for disciple-making.
and I love that for disciple makers because. As we've talked about before, disciple-making cuts to the very core of who you are. If you try to do it in a program, it won't work. It has to be a relational and intentional. Yeah. And so what, what you just said there, that cuts to the core of who we are normally cuts right.
Through our deepest weaknesses. Right. And insecurities and yeah. I know that as an intentional, that that relationships are hard and being relational, it's not my natural, you know, emo. Right. And so, but I know it's important. And so I have to lean heavy into that and it's. You know, a lot of years of really trying to develop that in myself and, and a lot of it's been painful to recognize the weaknesses that I have in that.
and so, you know, the same thing can be true with it. People who are naturally really relational, right? And so if we're going to be excellent disciple makers, then we have to be willing to walk through the valley of our weaknesses. And allow Jesus to help us, develop those as well so that we can really help people.
Tony, I was thinking about this a while back and I thought of an illustration about a shower. Right. So if we're thinking about, discipling somebody else, and if we only do it in the area of our strength, right. So, and I I've experienced his actually did this for a while. if I'm discipling somebody and.
Almost all intentional and hardly any relational. What that looks like is I'm delivering content. I'm asking some questions, but they're really kind of focused on doing, not on how they're doing, but what they're doing. and I thought, you know, if we do that, that's kind of like drawing a shower out that it's only ice cold water.
Right? I mean, we can do that so people can get clean in those shots. But it's not comfortable. And most people are going to jump out. Right. And so I had that happen that there were times when I was discipling people and they would just, they would leave and disappear and I'd be like, I don't know what's going on.
And, but the opposite can be true as well. Right. If we're only relational with people or too relational, it's like having a shower that, that is hot and stays hot and gets hotter and hotter. Cause it's just relationships. And we might think, well, that's, that's not that bad, right? I mean, but actually it is harmful because people then don't understand how is this disciple-making relationship?
Any different from a friendship. Yeah. And when they don't see a difference, they're not going to do anything to disciple somebody else in the future. They're going to think, well, man, Tony's my friend and I really appreciate him. And I'm glad I got him in my life. Right. And, and so there's that, that side too.
So if we want to have the most effective disciple-making, we can have, we want to have it kind of in the middle, right? Not too hot, not too cold, not too much intentionality, not too much relationship. We want kind of both in there. so that people are getting the results that they need to become disciples and disciple me.
Well, one of the interesting things that you said there is effective. And I think that this is really important because a lot of times we want to lump this conversation into good and bad, right? And we're not putting a connotation on whether or not you're relational or if you're intentional, we're just saying that the effective disciple maker always strengthens the weaker skill.
In his or her arsenal. Right. And so this is about effectiveness. It's not about saying, do we want you to have friends that you're absolutely want you to have friends? Right. Do, do we want you to, to be in, to, to put out good content, absolutely wants you to put out good content. We want you to do all those things, but effectiveness is rooted as disciple makers in modeling our life after Christ.
And so that means understanding. We need to grow in both sides of the scale, depending on where you are, to even things out, into reach the most amount people for Jesus. Right? Yep. Cause if we, if we only do one, then we're leaving something out. That's really vital. And Jesus style. Disciple-making when we look at him, he was.
He wasn't just one or the other. Right. He lived both out in the context of a disciple-making relationship with the men that he had, and we saw the effect that he had on those guys. Right. I mean, they were deeply loyal to him. I mean, most of them ended up dying, because of their association and faith in him, but they were also deeply committed to his mission.
Right. And so it was both and it wasn't just, well, yeah, I really liked Jesus, but yeah, I got a different thing that I'm doing with my life. I mean, that's not what we saw. It was both. I really love Jesus and I'm about the same thing he was about. Yeah. And so I, you know, the takeaway for today is disciple makers work on the skill that's on the opposite side of their scale.
Right. So wherever you are, if you're relational work on it, If you're intentional work on relational, the developing the balance creates an ideal environment that increases our effectiveness. Right. And the action step is for both of us, or I'm sorry for all of us to identify where you are light on the scale and take one step in how to grow in it.
Right? Just one step in growing in that either intentional or relational side of the scale, wherever you might be a little lighter. And so I, I think that as you look at their people that you are pouring into, this will help you grow immensely in this process. So as always, it's a joy and a privilege, to be with you on this disciple-making journey.
We are so thankful for our relationship with you. We're thankful for, that you give us the time to do this. If you could do us a favor, leave us a rating and review, especially on iTunes. It really does help get the word out about what God is doing on this planet. And maybe, share this episode with a friend, maybe share it with somebody who's on the opposite side of the scale from you.
I promise that we'll create some really fun and growth oriented dialogue. Thank you guys so much and we'll see you real soon.