Then no I'm growing and the life of a disciple should be a life of growth. It's the natural order of things.
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Justin, how are you this morning? My friend doing good. Tony spring is in the air. Baseball is being played, not in Ohio, but it's being played, which makes me happy. Oh, me too. And actually, you know what? My son Connor, just made the freshman baseball team. Wow. Yeah, go Elks. Yeah. Super excited about that. So we're, every waking moment where the sun is shining and it's above, 40 degrees.
We are outside passing the baseball and I had a stark realization. Have you ever had one of those before? Once in awhile? I, this was the realization for me. As, as we were passing the baseball, I realized something that I never thought would happen when it, my son is taller. Stronger and can throw a baseball harder than I can.
Hey, how you feel about that? I don't know. Like, so, I mean, I'm not going to turn this into my counseling session, but, but in one sense, like I have this tremendous sense of pride that I haven't killed this human yet. Yeah. Right. Like I've raised them. Right. Like obviously my wife is a huge part of that, but like we have raised them together and he is this incredible young man who loves Jesus and, And, you know, he's, he's doing good stuff in the world.
And then, and then there's the other part of me. That's like my ego. Right, right. And then on top of that Shiloh, my little princess, she, I was holding her the other day and I was holding her up and you know how she goes, now I'm the tallest. And she goes, well, unless Connor holds me and then I'll really be the tallest.
I was like a hurtful, hurtful. That's hilarious. Do you notice growth in your own kids? Yeah. So, you know, as you know, we have four, so ranging in age from 11 at the top end to four at the bottom end and the four year olds, our son, but our 11 year old Elise, she is getting super tall and she is inching up closer to being taller than my wife, her hands are getting big.
And so she had. her hand up against Kristin, my wife's hand to see which one was bigger. This, this week actually, and Kirsten is still bigger by just a little bit by maybe two centimeters. and so it's coming, right. It's so interesting to see. The growth and not only the physical growth, but the emotional development, just all sorts of growth that happens in our kids.
Right. And especially you have three kids, I have four, you can almost look around the table and see the different phases that they're in the different ways that they have grown over the past, however long, you know, since you noticed last. And I just find that really interesting and like you, I have a lot of.
A lot of complicated feelings wrapped up in them. I'm excited they're growing, but man, I don't want them to go and become adults and be gone. So yeah, I think every parent can probably relate to that. You know, one of the things that you and I often talk about in the idea of, of Jesus style disciple-making is raising spiritual children.
And so this, this whole topic really got me thinking. what does it look like to measure growth on a spiritual school? H that's it. That's a fantastic question. And, and we should be growing. Right. And I think sometimes we might forget that, especially when we are in a culture and have been, you know, historically in the church over the past hundred years, for sure.
The, focusing on the finish line of getting to the point of salvation, which many would consider the finish line? I wouldn't personally, But when the focus is there, then once you're there, you think, well, great. I did it. I reached that. And then this idea of, well, no, I should continue to grow and there should be continued maturing that's happening in me, just like it is.
And in our kids' physical. Yeah, we are having this conversation with a group of guys that, that I'm discipling now. And, and we say, you know, we were talking about the idea of baptism, right? And, and one of the things that I think that we oftentimes get right wrong in the church and just in Christian circles is that, we, we oftentimes treat baptism as the pinnacle, but the truth is, is that doesn't, isn't the pinnacle baptism is the basis.
Yeah, I like that. And, and there's this, there's this really, there's this like church word that I love to use when I'm preaching. and it's it's because I, sanctification is, is the church word. It's a big word, but it's sanctification. It's the process of becoming more like Christ to sanctify yourself, believing that Christ in all his glory is the perfect image of sanctity, of, of what it means to be perfect.
In with the father. Right. And so I love the idea that the process from baptism to, heaven is the process of, of becoming more like Christ dying to self and picking up more of that. Tony, I love that imagery that you talked about with the pinnacle and the base camp and that big word that you use.
Sanctification reminded me of a couple other big words that kind of relate to what we're talking about here. The first is glorification, right? So that we are on this journey where we're going to be on it until we die in our glorified with Christ. In heaven. Right? And so that glorification doesn't happen until we get to heaven.
And the other one is unification, which happens at the same time. Then we get to heaven. We're going to be unified with Christ. And so this, these, these ideas that, you know, have big words attached to them normally indicate there's something to it. Right. Cause we right. Taking the time to make a special word for it.
But as disciples, we are on a journey to becoming more and more like Jesus and be, and the degree that, which we do that we are growing, right. We're maturing. We're becoming more and more like him. And often we need to, we need to think about that and have that on our radar. More than most of us generally do more than I certainly did before I was taught about this, that then no I'm growing and the life of a disciple should be a life of growth.
It's the natural order of things. You know, I think that. The, the thought process of human growth is a really good kind of model to kind of evaluate and look at. Spiritual growth. And so I here's what I'm going to propose that today, we kind of do an overview of the four different phases of growth in a disciple.
And then in the next four episodes, we go ahead and we explore each one. And what kind of the, the intricacies of each stage and growth and what that looks like. So the best way to make sure you don't. The rest of this discussion is to go ahead right now, wherever you're listening and hit the subscribe button.
That's the best way to make sure you don't miss the rest of these episodes. So let's talk overview. And why don't you kick us off with. Yeah. So, an infant disciple and some people might use the term convert on this, but we, we prefer infant disciple because biblically, we don't see that term convert.
And there's not a distinction scripturally between someone who is an infant disciple and someone who is a convert, meaning that as soon as you are 10 seconds old in the faith, you are descending. Right. And we can refer back to previous episodes where we've said a disciple is someone who follows Jesus is being changed by Jesus and is committed to the mission of
And so those three things can hold just as true for the person who is, has followed Jesus for 10 seconds. And the person who's been following Jesus for 90 years or 80 years, however long. Right. And so this first phase, right. Of an infant disciple, is someone that's beginning to follow Jesus there in those really early days of what that means and what it looks like.
And so, yeah, there's, if you just picture an infant child, it really is great imagery. Right. Because you can't really do anything on your own as an infant. Exactly. And we preach very little of infants. Right. We expect that they're going to have trouble with most everything. Just be cute. Just speak. I don't know if that applies here, but, yes.
And they're going to make them mess. Right. We're going to have to clean up after them. We shouldn't expect much from them and yet there's life there. And the natural order of things is that if we just care for them well and responsibly that there will be growth that happens. And I think I like second Corinthians five 17, right?
Wait, new creation in Christ. You know, that whole idea, that identity piece, right. and then from infant, we go to next, we go to child, right. And you and I both have children and we're, we're raising those children. And, we're, we're teaching children and this is where life-on-life, disciple-making really gets to be a lot of fun because you're teaching children, not how to be children.
You're teaching children how to be adults. Right. So, you know, Karen and I always joke that we're not raising kids. We're raising good adults. That's the, that's the goal here. And so we, we live in that tension of responsibility and a privilege and freedom. And what does that look like? And accountability and consequence, and you know, those, those are the kinds of things that we start to talk about.
with child disciple-making in very much, you know, this is where we start to instill some of those skills. And we'll talk about this more, what the skills are in that child episode of the growth process. But it's a, it's a huge part of, of the process. And for me, this is, and just like it isn't parenting.
This is a really fun. Yeah, this is a really fun, this is a really fun area to live in. Right, right. Yep. Yep. That's great. I love that. And the next phase then would be the young adult disciple. And so, you know, again, if we just keep, keep looking back to the physical, right. What does it look like to parent a teenager or an adolescent?
And it gets a little more complicated because they're not quite a child, they're not quite an adult anymore. And so you're in this kind of awkward phase of trying to release responsibility, but also there's a lot of supervision that needs to happen. and they may, may need that and want that, or they may not.
And if they don't. Then they probably should. And you got to help them with that. And if they do want it, then maybe they shouldn't want it as much as they do. And you're trying to help them with that. And so there's this phase spiritually, as we are discipling, when they're a young adult, that it really mirrors what it looks like to parent an adolescent or a teenager.
And so that's kind of the young adult, and I know it says adult there, but again, it's kind of that in-between phase. All right, we're a child, but we're not quite mature yet. We're not quite an adult yet. This is also where people are going to really start to develop their theology. Right. And they're going to push back and, you know, I have young adult currently and I get the, the, the eye roll the most.
Right. And, and then, and so we're going to talk about this more in this episode, but one of the things that's really funny is that we often, enter into relationship with church people. In-between this child, young adult phase. Yeah. And that's often where we pick up the most baggage because, because we didn't train them because they weren't trained or, or we didn't train them as children, as young adults in the faith, they're much harder to train.
And that would be like, if I just gave you my teenager, it'd be really hard for you, Justin, to just assimilate my teenager into your family a certain way. It just wouldn't work. Let's not do that. He it, he does come with free childcare while they're, Hey, there's a perk, there's a park. And we left our kids last night and just left them with that young adult and said, put them to bed.
I will see you later. And you get to that phase, the mature disciple, right? The shows the virtues understands. Understands how the whole process works has, has what we call wisdom. Right? Wisdom comes with maturity and then that mature disciple is. It's kind of characterized by window wisdom. And then also mature disciples are able to reproduce the whole process.
And I think this is the ultimate like this. We talk about the raising the bar, right? And when we talk about raising the bar, mature disciples are the ones who are reproducing and, and that's. You know, that's grandparenting, which I've not been, but like being a spiritual grandparent as I am is one of the proudest things in my life.
Yeah. Amen. I echo that too. That I had somebody tell me once that the most amazing thing that can happen in a believers' life is to help somebody else come to know Jesus. And I, I had that experience. I've had that in my life and it is amazing, but there's something even better than that, and what's even better.
And then that is when someone that you've helped into the kingdom help somebody else into the kingdom. Right. Because you've seen that reproduction it's been passed on. But the other thing I think we should mention here, Tony, is that, as we're thinking about these phases of growth, we, we often need to also realize that we are somewhere in there.
Right. It's not just about other people. It's also about us. We are somewhere in this continuum and it doesn't matter how old you are. That doesn't mean that you're necessarily an adult spiritually, or how young you are both either physically young or young in the faith. Some people mature at different rates when it comes to spirituality.
And so, you know, it's important that we think about that and to kind of consider, right? Where are you? But also if you are discipling somebody else. You need to be thinking about, well, where are they? Because if I try to do with a child disciple, one thing, and I try and do that exact same thing with a young adult disciple or an adolescent, then they're going to respond really differently.
Right. And so I need to be wise about that. Let me ask you this. As I, as we're diving into this, and we're talking about this, one of the things that I've realized is that. sometimes I feel like I vacillate between like a mature disciple. And then other times a young adult disciple. Is it, is it possible to move back and forth or am I just kind of like, sometimes it, my ability to make disciples almost feel seasonal, and maybe that's just because I'm overly emotional and passionate about everything, but I mean, what, what are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, man, that's a great question. So, let me ask you this. Do you, do you feel the same way about different aspects of your own life? That's some areas you are like 40 in other areas, you feel like you're 14. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And I would say that about me too. Right. And so, again, the physical often, teaches us or informs us about the spiritual.
And so I think that's a super good question and really an insight here, right? That, yeah. We might be at one point with some things and, you know, in another phase with other things. And so. You know, overall though, that's kind of what we're thinking and looking at because none of us are perfect. None of us have it all together.
and so, you know, broad strokes where, where do you fit? But the other thing is if you recognize, well, yeah, I seem to be in this phase, but wow. This one thing in my life, I'm like an infant. Well, that should raise our attention and maybe our intentionality towards developing that part of ourselves or inviting somebody else in to help us with it.
And that goes back to that whole idea of sanctification, right? Is that it's never like, this is a pinnacle that as long as we're breathing, we're not going to get, you know, like we're striving to get to. Right. It's a, you know, it, but it's a, it's a continuous process. And one of the things that I've realized about myself as a, I still make a lot of decisions.
Core sins that I've I've made. Right? Like, I I've always wrestled with control. I've always wrestled with pride, but let's be honest. Like 40 year old version of me pride is much more powerful. Right. And it feels a little less sinful than 20 year old version of me pride. And thank God. I mean that by God's grace alone.
Right. And that makes me a little less than sufferable. Right. You know, like the sins as a young adult are some of the sins I still have as a. as a full grown adult, a mature adult and mature in air quotes. You know, me, it's not that mature, but it's, the growth has changed the way it looks still the core idea, but the way it looks, which I think feels like pretty on par with what you're talking about there.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely good. Tony will help us out with a takeaway and action step today. Yeah. So the, the takeaway, is faithful disciples expected. Faithful disciples expect to grow in the action step, right? It's an expectation, right? If you're following Jesus, you're going to move. Let me know. He's going to take you right up that mountain towards sanctification.
We believe that for you now, the action step is equally important, which is today. We want to invite you to just spend some time and identify where you are in the maturation process. Where are you on the mountain? Right? Where are you on the, the process of, of disciple-making growth and what does that look like?
So spend some time and identify it and, and whoever is discipling you or whoever you're discipling. I want to challenge you to talk to them. Like, Hey, you know what I've realized, this is an area where I'm a young at all this scenario where I'm mature child or infant. Right. Just identify it. There's no connotation to it.
And, and be sure to, to spend some time. So, you know what guys, that's our episode today. We're, we're so thankful for you. Justin final thoughts on this. No, I think we just got to keep thinking, right? Where are we? What is God asking us to do inviting us into so that we can continue to grow because disciples grow guys.
Thank you so much for spending time today. We want to invite you to share this episode with a friend, make sure you hit that subscribe button and join us next week. As we continue to explore the, the four pillars of the disciple-making process. Next week, we take a look at infants. We'll see you guys real soon.