You know, sometimes with maturity, it comes with a realization that, wow, man, we still have so much further to go because we never really moved beyond, the stage of being a mature disciple or another way to say that is we never get to a place where we don't need more growth. Right. Okay.
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Justin, how are you this morning? Doing real good. How are you doing? I'm doing good, man. Like, it's a sunny day here in Centerville, Ohio. it is holy week as we record this and I'm so excited for the Easter season and for all that, that entails. And, it's starting to feel like church is getting back to a little bit of normal.
And so, all that is very exciting for me. That's awesome. That's awesome. Tony, today, we're, we're continuing right in our series of growth of a disciple. you and I have been talking a little bit about it already this morning. let's start out with a story. Yeah. Like I told you, this is, for the listeners.
I remember this story from years ago, maybe years and years ago, it was a long time. and I don't actually remember a lot of the details, so I'm just going to make them up. so, so they're not historically accurate, not necessarily historically Justin at, Justin grab it. No, I'm just kidding. But the, the point and the, where we'll, where we'll land on it is historically accurate.
I just don't remember all the details around it, but, years ago, right? So there was a court case and the court case was there was a family member, a woman who was on life support and was, you know, declared, I think, clinically, brain dead, or she wasn't going to get better. And there is a. A dispute between her parents and her husband who had only married her recently a year or two years ago.
And the dispute was this, the parents said we need to leave her on because there's always hope and you never know what God can do, et cetera. The husband said, no, we have talked about this, you know, in the time that we'd been together and the time that we'd been married, we had talked about whether or not she would want to exist or live in this condition.
And she was really clear and emphatic that she did not want to. So the courts heard this and there was appeals and appeals. And, and finally, the end of the matter was this, the, the judge said that they were going to go with what the husband said. And the rationale was this. He said that, we're going to go with what the husband says because the husband knows this woman as an adult and the parents knew her as a child.
And so just that difference has always stuck out in my mind. I don't know why there's certain things that our brains hang on to and remember, but that's what I'm for me. And as I was thinking about this episode, we're kind of moving right from looking at infant disciple, child disciple. Now we're moving into the adult disciples, right?
So first the young adult disciple and then, the mature disciple. And I think we're going to see some similar things that there's, there's some real difference between. What it means to be a child disciple who's growing and what it means to be an adult disciple who's continuing to develop. Yeah, no, I love that.
And I, and I think, if we think about the maturation process, we begin to understand the difference between like owning it and then. Owning it with purpose for others. Right. And I think that that's probably the biggest characterization differences in these two, but we're going to dive into it a little bit more and take a look.
You know, the young adult kind of disciple, what that looks like. I think they're best described as a follower of Christ. They depend on him daily and they rely on him for guidance. This is somebody who's practicing the disciplines. One of the things I love to say is that if you're not dedicated to your disciplines, you'll be destroyed by your distractions.
And I think for the young adult disciple, the person who finds himself in this realm of existence, they've they know what their discipline. They've tested them against the boundaries. They know what's good. What's not good. Right. They, they submit themselves to these higher practices. And not only that, they're beginning to see that their faith is about serving others.
That becomes a high priority and they're seeking to integrate faith into their whole life. I, I love, young adult leaders in the church. They're some of my friends. And part of that is because they're very bold, right? They're very bold because they know what they believe and they're passionate about it.
And sometimes as a, as a senior leader, my job is to ask good questions, to see if that boldness is positioned in the right way. But other times it's to just give them the keys and let them go. You know, it it's interesting. I don't, I don't know about you, Justin, but I don't remember when I went from being a young adult to an adult.
Hm. That's a good question. I, I don't, I don't think I do either. I mean, there's a time in my life that I was growing so rapidly. That it was probably in that time, but yeah, I couldn't isolate, you know, within that time when that shift and I think the same is probably true in our faith walk. Right. And even when I had kids as a young adult, there were so much that I didn't know.
But then one day I woke up and I'm like, man, I'm not, I'm not a young adult anymore. I got, I got taken off the clergy young adult mailing list at 40. And it's like, all of a sudden now it's like, well, I'm doing my own thing, but that the, the subtleness of the transition is, is unique and it's important. And I think it's part of, part of the growth process.
How do we distinguish from the young adult to the mature person? Yeah, well, before we get there, I just wanted to add a couple of things. So last time we said that the, the child disciples were the most popular. group and churches and the young adult disciples are really the backbone of most churches, right?
So these are the people who are serving the most to are, who are they're the most, you know, they are, you know, really integrated into the church. but they're also, constantly. Talking and listening to God, they're reaching out to the loss, they've gone public with their faith, right? So their, their identity just like we would see in young adult people and their identity is really starting to come out and be expressed strongly.
And they have that passion of youth still as well. Right. and so, you know, I just wanted to throw those things in before we move on to the mature decision. mature disciples. they would take that next step and they would seek to reflect the life and character of Jesus in every aspect of their life.
And so, you know, I really think about this stage as there it's whole life integration, that there's no part of their life, that hasn't been touched by the gospel and by their faith. And so whenever anything comes at them in life, they're moving it through a filter. What does Jesus say where the scripture say, and then how do I need to respond as a result of that?
And so not only are their disciplines really consistent, but they've, they've integrated at such a deep level that even when, things that some people might process as well, this doesn't have anything to do with faith. You know, the boss asks, if you'll take this extra assignment or something like that, and it's an optional sort of thing, you know, they immediately think, well, you know, I need to pray about that.
I need to take some time to consider that and, you know, get before God. And they might not say that to their boss and that way, although they might. but they're going to do that regardless because they're, they're integrated at such a deep level. Yeah. They really have that gift of wisdom, I think. Right.
And, and they understand the importance of, having mentors and both in being a mentor and that it's, it's about pouring into the next generation and that whole idea, they, they, they really become the leaders in the church. And, and one of the things that we talk about here a lot at, at restoration is that we.
The bar of, being a mature disciple is someone who actively and intentionally makes more disciples. Right? So maturity is measured by reproduction in this particular case. Like that is the essence of it. So for me, one of the things that I say is that, that you're not a mature disciple, unless you're actively making more disciples.
Right. And I don't think that we really understand the importance of that until we get to that final. Final point of the growth process. And this is really, you know, if you're listening to this podcast, you're exploring disciple-making enough to kind of do some assessments about where you're at. Right?
And so one of the questions that I have for you as you listen to this is are you intentionally pouring into other people? And if the answer is yes, then you're probably on that way, that journey to being a mature person. The other question is a mature disciple knows that there are multiple places. th they know that there are multiple places where someone can be on the growth process, meaning that, that you, you can pick someone up who's a child or an infant or a young adult, and you can kind of see identify.
And, what's the word triage where they are so that you can walk with them in the next season. Yeah. So what you're really saying is. As we engage with people in our lives. If we have an understanding of the growth process for disciples, then we can identify, all right, well, where is that person broadly speaking?
And we can't know for sure, but you know, broadly speaking, where do I think they are? And we only ask that question, not in a judging sort of way, but in a way of, of helping why I want to come alongside that person and help them take that next step. Right, towards maturity so that they can not only know Jesus more and their life be impacted by him in so many positive ways, but also so that they can begin to intentionally reach out to others and be effective.
And communicating and spreading the gospel so that the whole world is changed. And I think this is a good point to remind everybody this has nothing to do with age. Yep. Right. And I know that we, we use this metaphor about, growing up kind of in the faith and growing and maturing and walking with. And we use that metaphor, throughout this entire episode and through all the episodes around this topic, but it really has nothing to do with faith.
There, there are some people who are younger than me. Who are more mature than me? well, in a lot of ways, honestly, and then there are people who are older than me, that, that aren't as far along as their journey and it's okay. Wherever you are. It's perfectly. Okay. this kind of assessment is, is a gift to identify where you're at so that you can judge, if you're.
Right. Right. And that's part of this whole process, don't you think? Yeah, absolutely. Because we want to be growing right as disciples and we want to help others grow. And that the biggest key in that is, is obedience. Right? So as, as Jesus has, is showing you and revealing things to you in the word, through other believers and your church, and through just the holy spirit, as he engages with you and.
we have to be obedient to that. And the rate of growth also is not the same person to person. And so some people might grow really rapidly through some of these stages and others. It might be slower. And, you know, as we talked about in the previous episode, there, there are times when we are a mature disciple in certain areas of our life and we might be invents in other areas.
Right. And so, you know, again, there's not a hard and fast thing that we're trying to draw out. We're painting with broad strokes to help us understand bigger concepts so that we can not only grow ourselves, but so that we can help grow other people and other disciples that we're investing in. Yeah. I think one of the interesting things that happens in this final couple of stages, right from young adult to mature is how we view Jesus as Lord.
Right. And I would say that the, the young adult disciple is going to be the kind of person who, who desperately wants Jesus to come back. Right there. They want, they want to do things that, that brings Jesus closer to them. They're they're doing a lot of ministries for the sake of Jesus. Right. And that's good.
That's really good. I think that there is a switch though. When you think about the mature disciple is the mature disciple realizes that it's their job to meet Jesus. Where Jesus is not where they are. And in that in the church world. And we've used this term before is called sanctification. The process of becoming more like Christ.
And so there's a, I was listening to a John Maxwell podcasts the other day. And one of the things that he said is that you come to a place in your walk where you realize you don't know what you don't know, and that might be another group. Kind of earmark of the mature disciple, because the truth is, is the more I've discipled people.
And the more that I think that I might be a mature disciple, the realize I realized how much I feel like I'm in my infancy. Right? Yeah. That reminds me of the grace gap illustration that we need to talk about sometime on this podcast. But it's essentially that idea. You know, sometimes with maturity, it comes with a realization that, wow, man, we still have so much further to go because we never really moved beyond, the stage of being a mature disciple or another way to say that is we never get to a place where we don't need more growth.
Right. And so that's just part of it. and the other thing that you mentioned, I think that that's important. Is this idea of, you know, surrender, being willing to risk everything, right? And when, when somebody is a mature disciple, they're willing to risk everything for him. They, they push all their chips into the middle of the table and say, you know, this is who I am.
This is what I'm about. This is what I'm going to do. And no matter what Jesus, I'm going to follow you. So anytime, anywhere, any place, anything the answer to Jesus's yes. To what he's asking. and that's, you know, even as I say those words, I think, man, I am, I they're like, I don't know, like that's where I'm trying to get to and day by day, moment by moment.
There, there are times where I feel like, yes, I'm there and there's other times where I'm like, man, I I'm not even close to that yet. but as we think about, you know, this idea of being a mature disciple, that is where we're trying to get right to the place of fullness surrender before him. Well, in, in ultimately.
As we think about the growth process it's in its entirety, right? Let's go through the four steps again, right? The infant disciple, right? The child disciple, the young adult disciple, the mature disciple, and in this process is it's continuously moving and evolving in different areas of your life. And let me give you a, let me give you a personal exam.
prayer for me in terms of like quiet prayer is very hard. Cause I'm a loud guy, obviously. Oh, you didn't notice how you didn't, you didn't know that I like to talk. Hey, and so one of the things that has been a real struggle for me is sitting in quiet with. Hm. And, and not, not playing on my phone, not even playing in the Bible.
Cause sometimes I can chase down words in the Bible. just, you know, that it's fun for me. And, and so sitting in quiet is one of those areas where, I'm working on maturing in, and those are an area where I've been challenged in and leaning into. And so I'm trying to grow in that area. Right. So it's almost like the growth process is both big picture and it can be micro in your life as well.
So like, Hey, where are you? An infant? Where are you? A child? Where are you a young adult? Where are you mature? And then what does that look like? Right. I'm curious, just in your experience where, you know, w where do you see yourself growing the most? Right. Yeah, right now, I am leaning into being more grateful.
so I tend to have a, I wouldn't say I'm pessimistic, but I would say that everything I look at, I can see lots of room for improvement. And so as a result, like I have trouble like stopping and just appreciate it. What is right. And so that's something that even over the past couple of weeks, God's been talking to me about.
And, so I'm developing some more robust disciplines and habits around taking time just to reflect on what was good, throughout that day and to be thankful for it. So, yeah. Yeah. So the reason that this is important, For, for all of us is, is that if you don't know where you're going, every road will take you there.
Right. That's kind of an old adage I've heard before. And I think one of the things that happens is, is that we often forget to, to have these markers in our lives where we know when we've transitioned from one season to the next. Right. Right. And so a lot of times. Christian circles. We just show up to Sunday morning and we worship and then that's it.
And we've done what we needed to do. We're saved. But yet, if that was true, then the moment we came to Christ, Jesus would just suck us up. I've heard you, I've heard you use that example of right, but he doesn't suck us up. He leaves us here so that we can grow to be more like him. And so that we could create as the Lord's prayer room.
On earth as it is in heaven, as we could help grow the kingdom of God here. Exactly. Yep, exactly. And so it's not only, it's, it's helping us reflect on our own growth, but also as we're discipling, right. It said idea of all right, well, where is this person? And you know, how can I draw this person into a conversation about, okay, well, as we look at your life, you know, just kind of like you and I did well, where where's God putting his finger on in your life and how can I help you with that?
You know, those certain things, but we also are able to see things that the person we're discipling, probably isn't able to see cause we all have those blind spots. And so with some of those, we can say, Hey, you know, here's something I noticed. Can we talk about it? And if we have the relational nature, if we have a relational foundation with the people we're discipling, then that is a hard conversation, but it's not a destructive one.
And so, you know, that's a big part of it. Now, Tony, we're kind of wrapping up this, this series right around, you know, growth and these stages of development for disciples. Is there any common traits that would be true, maybe in all of them? that, that you have seen across, across each one of them.
Well, I, I would say that the, the common trait would be reflection on scripture, a deeper understanding of scripture and that all, all of them desire, challenge for growth and growth in itself, right? Like it's a process of like, I'm engaging scripture for the purpose of growth. I mean, in deeper understanding of scripture for the purpose of growth, because at the end of the day, I.
To grow closer to Christ. Hm. Yeah. So each and every stage, no matter what stage you're in or what stage is the person you're discipling as in, you can be sure that reflection on scripture is really going to help that person grow. You can be sure that they want a deeper understanding of scripture. You can be sure that they desire to be challenged, you know, to grow.
And so all those things help us. As again, as we're thinking about our own growth, but also as we're thinking about how do we help the people that we're discipling to grow, you know, incorporating those three things are really important. I love it. And our action step and take away are actually the same action step and takeaway that we've been talking about this entire process.
I know, I know, but it's, it's important because no matter where you are in the process, these are two things you can do. So, so ask yourself the question. This is the takeaway, where are you? And how are you growing as a disciple and the action step, answer the question, right? Answer the question. Where are you, or how can you help develop a young adult or a mature disciple in your own life?
Step out in faith, be bold and let's grow together. Thank you so much for being a part of the practice podcasts. Thank you for being a part of our community. Do me a favor, hit that subscribe button, leave a rating review on iTunes. It really is. It does help get the word out about what God is doing through this platform.
Share this episode with a friend and maybe somebody that you're walking alongside, and they're just journey of faith. And let's see, this disciple making movement continue in churches all over the world. Thank you guys so much. Happy Easter. If you're listening in real time. and we'll talk to you guys real soon.