What we really see is Jesus brought people together to send them out.
Hey everybody, welcome back to the practitioners podcast. Applying Jesus' style disciple-making in everyday life. This episode is powered by navigators church ministry. Which focuses on helping churches make disciples who make disciples, check out navigators, church, ministries.org for more information and how you can build a culture of disciple-making that transforms the church and the community in your local church.
Justin, how the heck are you? My friend doing great. Tony, how are you doing? Doing really good. I'm excited to jump into today's topic. Why don't you tell us? Absolutely. So today we're going to be talking about how disciple-making must be multiplied or it's not Jesus' style, which is kind of a big statement, right?
Because when we talk about discipleship, disciple-making a lot of times. You know, we're not thinking about where it's leading past the person that sits across from us or that we're, we're investing in. But what we're proposing today is that it's not Jesus' style disciple-making if it's not multiplied.
So Tony, why don't you start us out? Tell us what your experience has been with reproduction. Yeah, to be honest with you, this was a big topic that I really struggled with early on in mentoring. Um, some of you know, that I worked at a pretty large church before being the lead pastor here at restoration.
And I was in charge of disciple-making. We had probably 120 disciple making groups. We call them life groups. I'm sure you've heard all the terms for them. So groups based communities, all the things. Right. And, and here's what I found is that I could get a lot of people into the groups, but I couldn't get a lot of people to, um, To own the groups or to become owners of the vision of the groups.
And so what I found is that even when I met with people and I did a lot of life with people and I challenged people in their faith, what I found is that it was really easy to make disciples, but it was ridiculously hard to make disciples who would then go on and make disciples. And as a super relational guy, Yeah.
Tell me more about what you mean when you say that they didn't own the group or own the vision of the group. Well, so a lot of times I think that when people show up to life groups, they're there to get their needs met instead of owning the mission of going out and meeting the needs of others, just like Jesus did, right?
Like if Jesus was only there for his own needs, then the disciples wouldn't have bought in, but he was also there for the needs of the next, uh, uh, Of his disciples and, and really generations that would follow those disciples. And so what I often see in these life groups is that people get super comfortable, which is nice, right?
Like, and they build great strong relationships, but they're not any closer or they're not even more intentional about following Christ at the end of their time in the life groups, they just created really good friendships. And while that's valuable, that's not disciple-making. Hmm. No, that makes a lot of sense.
Okay. But I'm sure I'm not the only one. What about you? What's what's uh, you know, what's your story when it comes to this intentional reproduction and disciple-making right. So for me, it was a little different. You know, I started out making disciples in college. And so the first guy discipled was a boxer, um, and went to junior nationals even.
I mean, he was a pretty impressive guy as far as all that went and, but he was a new believer and I started to disciple him. And, um, after. Well, it was close to a year. I started to ask him, all right, well, who can you, who can you invest in? And you know, it wasn't my idea. It was because the guy who had been discipling me had, had helped me with that idea and vision.
And, um, and so I started asked Brad that, and then he started to invest in a guy named Chris. And that really just, it went pretty naturally for me. And so I didn't know how, how unusual that was, but over the past 20 years, I've seen, um, many, many others struggle with reproduction and, you know, sometimes I haven't, it hasn't worked for me either, and I am not batting a thousand here.
Um, But that's kind of, it was always part of my vision and part of what I understood disciple-making to be, because I really was in a culture of disciple-making and the person who was discipling me really, um, really helped me to see that and emphasize that. Uh, quite a bit that it wasn't about just helping one person, but disciple-making was really God's plan to reach the world.
And so we weren't going to do that if we were just, you know, practicing dead end discipling, as I like to call it right where it just doesn't go anywhere. Right. We, we help one person in dead end disciple-making and then we have, we have another disciple, but that disciple isn't, isn't moving outward. And so.
You know what, that really leads to Tony as it leads to, you know, really practicing addition as opposed to multiplication. And so, you know, that seems like a big concept edition. The addition, you know, one plus one, now we have two, but it's two people who are just existing and they're disciples and following Jesus and all the ways other than.
You know, helping somebody else. And so I, I really believe our churches are full of people like that, where they're really interested in following Jesus, but when it comes to helping somebody else, whether it's a non-believer or another. Uh, Christian that they're in relationship with the either don't have interest or don't know how to do it, but when we practice multiplication, then as a disciple maker, I'm discipling somebody else.
And the goal for that person is not just to follow Jesus in. In their own personal life and personal walk, the goal is that they would follow Jesus in their personal life and personal walk, but then go out and help others to do with them, what I've done with that person or what the disciplers done with that person.
So that's kinda, that's been my story. Um, And, and I know it's hard because I've helped so many others, uh, begin in disciple-making. And one of the easiest things to miss is how do we, how do we get this to reproduce? And so, man, you're a relational guy. One of the things that I've I've also observed is that relational people can often make a disciple without being intended.
Uh, that that's absolutely been the case for me. Right. And you know what I love about multiplication as the bar for Jesus style disciple-making is that it's the it's raising the bar versus lowering, lowering the kind of the expectations. And so. Uh, for me, like, it's really easy for me to connect with you, people.
That's, that's part of how God wired me. And I'm so thankful for that. And I appreciate that. But what I will tell you is, is that it, it leads me to a place where I often want to do personality style disciple-making instead of Jesus' style disciple-making let me tell you the difference. Okay. Because I think this is important when I meet with someone and the first, very first guy discipled, I feel like I should go back and apologize too honestly.
Um, because when I met with him, I was so on fire for this style of, of, of disciple-making and multiplication. And I was like, okay, man, you need to go out and you need to make disciples, and this is how we're going to do it. And I didn't give him any tools that he could hold on. Hmm. Instead, instead, I just use my personality.
And so, uh, I'm a pretty decent question, asker, so I could ask a lot of questions and then I could use that. Now the problem is I never told them, Hey friend, a question asking is a tool that we use in Jesus' style. Disciple-making right. And I never called out the tool intentionally. And so, because I was high relationally and I was low intentionally, what ended up happening is my friend got closer to Jesus.
But he wasn't any closer to making a disciple than he was when I met him. And so, uh, so I would say that that was kind of the hardest part about this is as like, man, I could get him to know Jesus at a deeper level. And he had some encounters with the holy spirit that were powerful and that were good.
And, and we're not downplaying the importance of any of that, but at the end of the day, he's still not out there making disciples who can make disciples. Right. So I'm curious though. So personality wise, I mean, you're able to do that pretty naturally as a relational guy. Was this, was this person you're talking about?
Was he similar and was he a relational guy or what type of guy. That's a great, that's a great point. No, he, he was, uh, he was a scientist. He was an engineer. He he's much more introverted than I am. He's got a huge heart for Jesus. He loves people, but he just doesn't like them in large doses. Okay. More like me than you.
Well, I wasn't gonna say that, but yes. More like you than me. And the truth is, is, um, you can't. Make disciples or reproduce in the image of the person who poured into you. If that person isn't doesn't have those same, same traits. Right. And right. And that just becomes really hard in terms of, if we don't equip people, uh, they end up just staying in versus being sent out.
Yeah. So that, that last thing you said, if they're not the same as us, then they're not going to do it like us. Right. And, and so that, that really raises the bar on, in terms of being a disciple maker that we have to understand and be aware of how the person that we're investing in is wired up. Right because relational people can make disciples without being intentional, but you know, it takes intentionality, even for relational people, it takes intentionality to see generations emerge.
And so, um, you know, that's something that, you know, for, for somebody who is more wired up the way that this guy was that you're talking about. Uh, I've had, I've known from the start. I can't make a disciple through my personality or anything like that. Like I've had to be very intentional in what I do.
And as I look at Jesus, uh, again, we're, we're aiming for Jesus style disciple-making. And so in Matthew 28 and the great commission, when he says, therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, you know, they were prepared. At that point, they were so ready that, that Jesus even had to tell them later on, we see this in the, in the book of acts, uh, that, Hey, okay.
Yeah, go. But, but wait, wait for the holy spirit. I mean, they were so ready that they had to be told to wait. And so often in our lives, it's, it's different, right? We're trying to push and prod and pull people to go out and help somebody. And when we're doing that, then that indicates to me that. That they're, they're not equipped or they don't feel like they're equipped and that's something we have to, um, we have to help them with right.
For Jesus. Um, and John 17 four, he said he is praying to God. That's the high priestly prayer of scripture. So one of the most sacred texts and all of scripture, we're seeing conversation between him and God, the father. And he says to God, the father, I have brought you glory by completing the work you gave me too.
Um, and a lot of times we just pass right over that. Right. Because we know, okay. Yeah, Jesus was obedient. He did everything he was supposed to do. Um, but when we, when we place this in the narrative of Jesus, his life, he's not yet gone to the cross. This is pre resurrection. And so. The salvation work that he came to do, um, hasn't been done yet.
And yet he is saying at this point that he's completed the work. And I believe that what he's referring to is, is the men that he had invested in and had prepared to be disciple makers. So. Yeah. What do you, what do you think of that? What do you make of that? Well, I think it makes a lot of sense when we talk about, um, one of the reasons that Jesus gathered people together is to send them out right there.
There's nowhere in scripture. And this is one of the things that you and I both agree on in terms of the local church. As we look at like small groups and, you know, the, what we call disciple-making in the local church most often in my experience is gathering people together. And getting them to follow Jesus more closely.
But, but when we look at Jesus style, disciple-making what we really see is Jesus brought people together to send them out. Right. And one of the great examples of that is Paul and his relationship with Timothy. Like when you think about Paul in his letter to Timothy, um, we we've used it here at restoration as an example of disciple-making because, because Paul poured him.
His heart out to Timothy. He calls him as a spiritual son in the faith. What does that second Timothy two, two that says, and the things you have heard me say in the presence of many others are the other witnesses and trust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others. Right. So, so think about the generations there.
Paul is writing this letter to Timothy, and then he's saying, Hey, Timothy, I want, I want to. You to entrust this to reliable men who will also go on to teach. Right. And so you're almost looking at like four different spiritual generations, right? Paul is pouring his heart out to Timothy, not so Timothy can, you can treasure all that up, but rather so, so Timothy can use it and send it out.
And I, I love, I love that because, and you and I have talked about this before, even on the podcast, right? If you're worried about building a church, if you're worried about church attendance, you know, that things will die. But if you always worry about making disciples that kingdom will grow and the church will be full because you're sending people out to go to go make disciples and go do it.
And, and I love that. Uh, I, you know, I'm kind of curious what's, what's it look like practically let's get practical for somebody who might be listening and asking the questions. How do I start changing my disciple-making method from, uh, to, to intentional reproduct? Yeah. So just to, to tack on the end of that second time of the 2, 2, 1, 1 of the things that I love about it is generational, right?
And that flows into this practical thing that I'm going to be talking about here is that, um, if we want generations to emerge and are disciple-making, then we have to understand that the methods. By which we invest in others is the means that we're discipling them. And so what I mean by that is that if we are going to disciple programmatically, then we are equipping them only to do the same.
And so they will disciple programmatically, uh, if they, if they reproduce at all. Um, and so what we do, uh, between us and that first generation. Um, disciples is greatly important. So from the beginning, what I would, I would say practically from the beginning, the disciple maker needs to have in his or her mind that the goal of what I'm doing here is reproduct.
And now, now one of the things I say to the guys that I disciple and girls, this may or may not work for you, it's kind of direct, but, but I'll, I'll ask them either the first or second meeting. Hey, why do you think I'm doing this with you? And most commonly they'll say, oh, well, you know, I know you really care about me and you know, you want to see me grow as a disciple.
And, you know, I say, yeah, all that's true, but, but that's not why I'm here. And they, they kind of get a puzzle look. And I say, to be honest, I'm not here to help you. And then I say, you know why I am here, I'm here to help those people that you're going to help later on. Yeah. And that really kind of sets the DNA in some ways of what we're doing, because now I want them to view everything that we're doing through that lens of, okay.
I'm being made at disciple or help to become more of a disciple, more mature disciple so that I can go out and help others. And so as so often in our, in our culture, we, we engage in things as consumers. And if we want them to not just consume, but to go off and to produce, uh, in the midst of discipling others, and then they have to do that.
Right. The other thing I think is really key. And I want to hear your thoughts on this. Tony is, um, you know, what sort of qualities should we be thinking about as we are investing in. In that first-generation. And how does that relate to reproduction? Well, that's a good question. I think some of the things that we often forget is that not everyone is in a season of their life where they're ready to think about reproduction.
Some people just aren't spiritually mature enough in the same way that we have to mature. You know, and in our humanity, we have to mature in our spirituality as well. And so, uh, one of the things that we always talk about here at restoration, and I know you do too, Justin, is, is this idea about choosing someone who's fat, right?
Baseball available, you. Faithful available teachable. We're looking for fat people and I love that because it's easy to remember and it's kind of cheeky, but also it reminds us that not everyone's ready. To start reproducing. Now that doesn't mean that we should engage them, engage them in the disciple-making process.
Right. Jesus engaged people all the time, who he didn't send out. Sometimes they just needed some care. And, and so I think about that with my non-Christian friends, right? Like they're not, they're not ready to, I mean, they're not even, they don't even believe in Christ yet. They're not ready to reproduce Christ.
Right. We've got to get to a place where we understand that. That as we look for someone for the express purposes of reproduction, that our multiplication even like. They, they need to be faithful. They need to be available. They need to have space in their life and they need to be teachable. Right. They, they need to be able to take the scripture and use it.
Like second Timothy three 16 says that, you know, it's all useful for teaching and correcting rebuking. You know, that that's the kind of mentality. They need to be able to handle that in order to make disciples. And I think that's key. I totally agree that I, we need to have an episode just on that. Cause there's a lot of stories and nuance that we can, that we can bring out of that.
Um, but it's definitely super important as we're thinking about reproduction, because if we're trying to reproduce into people that are not, not ready. Then we're just going to be spinning our wheels. I agree. I agree. I think that, you know that as we kind of bring this topic to a close, that there's something that we have to keep in mind.
And, and this is what I hear all the time, because I have kids who are of a certain age. Right. They're younger kids. My parents always say that grandparenting. Is the best thing that ever happened because you get to see the fruit of years and years of labor. And if you're listening to this today, what I want to encourage you is that this is the season to begin the work of becoming a spiritual parent and a spiritual grandparent.
This is, this is the time where we get to think about impacting generations who will impact generations. And I know. I know that that the sweetest fruit is after the hardest labor and that will come and spiritual grandparent. Hmm. I love that. I love that because it is about generations, right? And it's hard work.
I mean, it's hard work to disciple. It's hard work to disciple in such a way that, that others will reproduce it and multiply it. And I think our takeaway for today, Uh, it's really gotta be disciple-making must be multiplied or it's not Jesus' style discipling. And so we need, we need to keep that in mind as we move forward and discipling others and thinking about what it looks like to, to be a disciple, but also to make disciples.
Tony. Is there any, any action steps that you can kind of leave for us today? Well, I just want to encourage people that if they're ready to take the next step to, to make sure that they're, um, being a Jesus style disciple maker, it's to go out in that practical way and set the, set it right out of the tone, make sure that your, um, your, your method.
Is your means and, and get out there and, and set the goal right up front. Um, and, and remember, you know, Justin and I are here to help you, right? Our goal here is to create practical applications so that you can become a practitioner of Jesus style. Disciple-making so do us a favor subscribe, make sure you don't miss any other episodes, want to connect with you.
We want to make sure that you're a part of this community. Who are out there changing the kingdom of God through Jesus style. Disciple-making also, it would be a huge favor to us. If you could leave us a review, a rating, let us know what your thoughts were on this episode and share the episode with maybe one of your friends or fellow pastors or church leaders.
As we go out to make Jesus style disciples.