17. Practitioner's Podcast: The Impact of Discipleship on Consumerism 2
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Justin random question of the day. Are you read it? I'm ready. Laid on me. One food that you've never eaten. Oh wow. Never eaten before in my life. Never tried it. oysters. I have never tried an oyster. Oh really? I like oysters. I don't know. I might like them but I've never tried them. How about you Buffalo?
Buffalo now. Cause that's it it's really good. I hear that it's pretty popular but I don't know that I've ever had Buffalo. Okay. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Well we are always learning new things about goals right? Goals. We could you know what maybe I'll take you to lunch. You can get always stirs and I'll get back.
That'd be fun. That'd be fun. Think of a place that serves both though. That's the problem. That would be the challenge right? Oh man. Tony we're excited to get into continue talking about consumerism and its impact on disciple-making. those of you that were with us last episode you know this is the second episode in that.
And we talked about last time. Right how satisfaction can be purchased. And there's a few tenants of consumerism and that's kind of the first one that we. Purchase satisfaction. And in a nutshell it said they don't need to depend on God or we don't need to depend on God in order to have satisfaction.
We can find it out in the marketplace in the world. and so. We are continuing right talking about we're onto the second one today. and this second one Tony it's one that as I've had my antenna up to it for over the past few years has become more and more obvious to me of how we are organized as a culture and as is as a society and how it impacts us.
And so. And again building on the first one and like last episode I kind of I'm going to talk here for a bit and share kind of the tenants and the principles of consumerism and then Tony and I'll have a conversation around those things. So as I mentioned satisfaction can be purchased a first tenant.
The second one is purchasing power is found in systems. And so this makes money the most powerful for. In consumerism and in life. And so as we know and probably have seen most Americans bow down to the almighty almighty dollar not the almighty God. And even those who some proclaim right that were bowing down to the almighty God their lives actually reflect a different reality.
And that is that they're putting money in the top place. And there's a reason for that. And the reason for that is that in consumerism if you believe that satisfaction can be purchased it puts money as the most powerful force in life. Now money was powerful in Jesus' day as well. And that's why with his 11.
sorry with his 1211 of his 39 parables. Talk about money and make kind of a thing of it. But when we're talking about Pershing power found in systems a question comes out of well. If if satisfaction is for sale and can be purchased then the next question is well where do I get money enough money so that I can purchase all the things that I need to be fully satisfied.
And that's where systems come in. You know an American in the west we are groomed for a systems like. So if you just consider you come into the world most everybody comes into the world through a system you're born in an institution of a hospital. Somebody catches you that you don't know that it's not in relationship with your parents sometimes because of who's on call and who's not on call the doctor catching you and bringing you into the world as somebody your parents have never even met but they're trusted because they are.
part of the system they've been trained in a system given power and authority in a system and the parents you know me for my kids lots of people right? We we say well this is the best thing is a way to have a safe delivery end of the world. And so we're born into a hospital and we. Enter a school we're around five years old or younger for preschool another system and institution.
We move through that all the way through high school or college. And then we move into a workplace system with lots of rules and regulations and we take our place in that system. And finally after moving through the system of education we are prepared to earn some money. From the system that we are participating in and that system is that workplace right?
And so we work for decades on end to get enough money to buy the things that we need to buy. And depending on how immersed in consumerism and bought in we are we believe that that is what is leading us to satisfaction to getting those needs met. And finally after decades and decades of work some of us retired.
Are able to retire from the system of work and contributing to the bigger picture of consumerism. And we've stored up enough money where we don't have to work anymore. And then finally our exit from the world is often through a system whether it's hospice or you know some other aspect of system life.
And so we are so immersed in systems that most of us don't even see. Most of us don't even think about it anymore. It's just life. It's just culture. Right. And that's what we're kind of unpacking in the series is is the culture of consumerism. And how does it impact us as disciple makers? Now I need to step back and say Hey systems aren't all bad.
Right. So just because it's a system does not mean it's bad or it's wrong actually there is a lot of benefits to systems compared to a non systematic way of living. Right? So systems provide consistency. They provide control as well as safety and the ability to scale. And so if you just think about one slice one system would be like good example a Chipotle restaurant.
Hey so there's a system to Chipola right. You walk into any Chipola in the country and you know what it is that you're about to get yourself into. When you step into the doors you know there's going to be a line. There's going to be certain options given to you. You're going to tell the person what you want.
And you're going to walk out of there with something that looks almost exactly like the Chipotle a from where you live and that's some of the good parts right? So there's there's other good parts of systems that you know their safety. So we have a system in the U S of public health and standards for food safety and restaurants et cetera et cetera.
And so I want to be clear. That systems are not bad. but here's the downside of systems that systems I would suggest do almost as much harm harm as good. And maybe more especially to Christ followers or disciples. And here's why the system way of living whether it's a healthcare system education system childcare system is to do a few different things.
First it seeks to elemental allies. And what I mean by that is it pulls apart the whole into these different parts and then it curricular rises. So it says all right well how do I move somebody from one to the next in a systematic sort of way? And then it seeks to manage everyone through the system.
And so another way of saying what I just said is systems make relationships optional systems don't need us to relate well to one another but God made humans for relationship not only with him but for one another. And we can see that in Genesis two 18 systems violate our humanity by making relationships operate.
Now that's okay if you're a consumer and what you believe is that I can get satisfaction in life through purchasing things whether it's purchasing time things experiences. If that's my way of getting satisfaction. If I believe that then it's okay. I don't need people or relationships but this is one of the ways that we are all being impacted because these systems are leading us towards.
Those sorts of beliefs. And once you get your antenna up to those certain things you can begin to see that happening all around you. So Tony that's kinda the big picture today. system life impacts the way we relate to one another to our work and to ourselves. And let's talk about a little bit what kind of what you're hearing but also how it impacts us as disciples and disciple me.
Yeah I think that the thing that's really jumping off of the screen for me is this idea about inherited systems and that oftentimes Inherited systems were either born into brought into or ushered into because of what we're trying to accomplish as a consumer. Right? So our consumeristic nature and naturally lends us to inherited systems.
It reminds me of a book that I read a while ago called called resident aliens. And it was this idea about Christians being Allianz in the community that they're in. Right. And so this same idea is seems like it happens all the time with systems systems breed a culture of. Of what the system is trying to produce right?
Whether that's a burritos at Chipola or whether that's retirement at GM right? Like it's it's one of those things that the system is inherited. It it creates and breeds a culture and that's kind of how all of that is is played out. So I can see where that would be a problem in disciple-making. but but couldn't it also be a gift in disciple-making if we create a kind of a a system of reproduction I mean am I off base?
There could is it possible to create a healthy system? Yeah. So that's a great question. Right? So again systems aren't all bad. And so there are some good things in them. I would suggest especially in disciple-making what I'm seeing all over is attempts at curriculums and systems as the dominant piece of disciple-making.
Now they they won't tell me it's the dominant piece but when we start to get down into the details and how it's impacting those who are using it and experiencing it it is overshadowing the relationships. Right. And so now I'm all for being intention. Right. And thinking through what we're doing and why we're doing and even sequencing of how we're doing.
but when we get it all the way packaged up into a system that is deliverable purchasable elemental realized that's where I see a lot of a lot of trouble happening right. Or a lot of we're not getting to those outcomes that we're seeking to get of people catching a vision of no this is about loving others at such a deep level that we're passing on our relationship with God to others.
I don't know. What do you think? What do you see? Yeah. yeah as you were kind of explaining this I I think that that might bring us to a very good distinction that there is a difference between systems and tools. Right. And as I as I was thinking about the idea of disciple-making you and I are both very passionate about the idea of tool-based disciple-making well with tool-based disciple-making one of the things that happens is we show up and we have a toolbox of.
Things that we can use based off of the relationship. So instead of system-based disciple-making where the system dictates the relationship and the other version of tool-based disciple-making the relationship determines which tool we use. Yeah. And so the relationship is first. So if I'm working with an engineer the type of tools that I would use would be very different than if I'm working with a sales professional because their personalities how they interact with the material is so different.
And that will will kind of dictate which tool use versus a system is already in place. So I'm not trying to train someone in systems. I'm trying to say train someone with tools. Am I saying that right? You think? No I really like that. I think that's an important distinction. Right. And even thinking about what is a tool and what does it do?
Right. So tools don't do the work tools help the craftsmen do the work. And so you can put a tool in the hands of somebody that's unskilled and it's still not going to go well. Right. But if you put an even an inferior tool in the hands of someone who is thoroughly trained an expert crafts It will be sufficient.
And so a lot of times I see we're using curriculums and people are calling them tools but they're not really tools cause they're doing the work. The curriculum is doing the work not the person. Right. And so that's the struggle of okay well what is the difference here between the system doing the work and the person or the relationship being the dominant part of doing the work and you know Tony it reminds me that.
We actually talked around this sort of thing in different language just a couple episodes ago when we were talking about whether pastors should have friendships within their within their church. And to me that's a consumerism question because if pastors view themselves as leaders within a system as opposed to people within a community well those lead to very deep.
Ways of being within that space. Right. And so if we're just part of a system and that's how we're getting our money and that's where the expert there. And so we're having all these services we just came out of Christmas not too long ago and all the extra things that are going on for pastors at Christmas.
Well it's expected as part of the system. but if we're seeing ourselves primarily as a participant within a community Our way of being there is is very very different. Yeah. You know this it reminds me a little bit of the denomination that I was a part of. Right. Because I was from for seven years I was a Methodist pastor and I love the Methodist church.
I love Wesleyan theology. and then recently I got a call from my district superintendent and she said and I'll never forget it. She said Hey Tony we think it's. For you to move right. Move away from restoration move away from Centerville and and take a new church. And I said Ma'am I you know I I don't want to move.
Like I feel like I'm building generational disciples. It's going to take a generation for me to do that. I'm going to need the time I'm going to need this space. And she said well that's not how our system works. Right. And and and she goes you know that the system is is that. You move when we tell you to move and that's kind of how it works.
And so I had to in order to to continue with what I felt like God was calling me to I had to step out of the system because right wrong or indifferent. Right. And this isn't a judgment on the Methodist church. They've been doing it this way for a lot longer than I've been alive but but the system is what sets the tone for the pieces of their.
Their process right? Like it's you know if you're a Methodist pastor that that word Methodist indicates that you've accepted and decided to step in to their system. So in order to get out of this system I had to give up some at the time what felt like security and what I love to do but in the long run my calling from God was bigger than this.
Yeah. Yeah no that's a good example. And it reminds me of something. My friend bill Maori says often is he says that it's easier to regulate than it is to relate. so yeah easier to regulate than it is to relate. And so oftentimes we will default to systems in terms of how we manage and how we lead because it's just a lot messier to be in relationship with people and to figure out what do they actually need and how do we help them grow?
And it's just much easier to say well here's the system. You go through it and you'll end up where you need to be. But if you don't well that's a hard thing for that other side to say it'd be like well I went through your system and I still don't feel any different because then it's like well well it is a problem.
You or me? Because oftentimes the response is well we have all these other people they felt good about it. Right. And so those are all complications with systems. Another one. And this is how individual disciple makers are often. affected by this one is time right? Because people are giving their time into a system.
Normally it's their work job. Right. So they don't have time to do a lot outside of that because they're there they're working hard to get the money and the resources that they need to participate in these other systems the way that they feel like they should. But the other side of it is that others won't even start because they feel.
All right. Well I'm an accountant so I'm an expert in that area of my life. Justin you're asking me to go help people grow in their faith and I I've never been to seminary. I've never been trained in that. And so that must be for somebody else to do. Maybe I could just manage the books of the. Maybe that's what God's called me to do as part of building the kingdom.
And it just shrinks down our vision so far because we think well God's call his full call for us to make disciples isn't for everybody. We think it's just for the experts. When in actuality it is right. It is for all of us. Yeah that's a really good word. I think sometimes systems while again they they do offer some sense of security.
They just offer what they also do is limit our ability to see the fullness that God has for us. because the fullness that God has for us you know first John four and no one has ever seen God but if we love one another God lives in us and his love is made complete by us. You know the very nature of God's love is relational.
It's not systematic. You know that the fact that Jesus came to. And in the flesh relationally is what makes this work at wa it wasn't a system. God didn't send a system. He sent a person in itself. I just think that's really important when we think about disciple-making consumerism and how we battle it back.
Justin would you share the takeaway and the action step for. Yes. Our takeaway today is systems make relationships optional systems make relationships optional and we have to fight against that. Right? So we are in Tennessee to be up to that have to be aware because relationships and the kingdom of God are not optional.
Our action step then is to evaluate the system you're currently discipling in. So. how are you discipling? How are you being discipled? Is it driven through through and by a system or is it driven through relationships and trying to after you evaluate that try to lean in more to relationships and you know again for me I think.
Our series on consumerism. And disciple-making my hope is and I know Tony's same way as it. It's going to raise up your antenna and your level of awareness to these things in our culture. That's really driving our culture not only in the church but in every place that we go in our culture there's systems around us.
And there's expectations that the system places on you and we're going to get more into all that stuff as we move. forward into the next episode. So thanks again for being with us. We really appreciate you guys. if you haven't yet click that subscribe button share it with your friends and we'll see you next time.