Hey everybody welcome back to the practitioners podcast where we're applying Jesus style disciple making to everyday life. This episode and all of our episodes are powered by Navigators Church Ministries. For more information or to get connected go to navigatorschurchministries. org. Justin so excited.
We're we're rolling now. Episode nber three season four. What are we talking about? Now today Tony we're going to talk about God's role in disciple making and I'm excited about it because here's the thing that a lot of people don't understand and the implication of not understanding God's role in disciple making is we either try to do too much.
We try to do things that aren't for us to do. Or we try to push too much onto God and believe that our role is less than what he's actually intended it to be. You know Tony I was in a meeting just this week and somebody on the staff in this meeting is a meeting of disciple makers in the church.
Most of them were lay people et cetera et cetera. Someone on the staff said Hey you know it doesn't matter. We don't we aren't the ones that make disciples anyway. God's the one that makes disciples. And I had to push back in that moment because I said Well if that's the case then we should all just go home and watch Netflix or something.
Because if God's the one that's doing all of this then he doesn't need us. But that is not the case. The case is God has a role in disciple making. He has designed it so that each of us has a role in disciple making. Now I don't want to I don't want people to hear that and think that we don't need God or that God can't do it without us because He can and sometimes He does.
But the normative plan for disciple making in the kingdom of God is that God has a part in it. And we have a part in it. Otherwise the Great Commission wouldn't have been given to us. Yeah I think one of the things that's interesting about this is that this kind of thought process often goes with how active you believe the Holy Spirit to be in our everyday lives right?
And so typically what you'll see is you'll see somebody who's like super charismatic who says well the Holy Spirit has to do everything. Or you have someone who's less charismatic or maybe even a sensitive person. Sensationist who would say no we have to do everything truthfully. I think what we see is kind of that word that Paul uses co laborers right?
We co labor with Christ in order to make disciples which is why we have the great commission. It's why Jesus clearly modeled it for us in our time on earth. It's why we kind of we have a part to play in this. And and let's be clear. Part of that is because. When we make disciples it transforms us. So God loves us so much that he doesn't want to leave us where we are.
And yet there are parts to disciple making that God has to be in charge of that we can't control. And I think that's what we're going to kind of jp into today. We've got four different parts kind of four different things that God is in control of when it comes to disciple making. Justin why don't you start us off with the first one of those?
Yeah so these four things are things we can count on God to do as we disciple and make disciples and We need to count on him to do it because we cannot do these things Okay and so the first thing out of the four is God entrusts people for us to disciple another way to say that is he gives people for us to disciple and what was important to Tony and I as we were thinking about this episode is is We don't just want to tell you what we think God's role is we want to make sure that we're rooting these things in the scripture right?
So we're going to show you at each each of these four things why we think that why we believe that god gives people for us to disciple and so the scripture on this is john 17 6 And jesus is praying. This is the high priestly prayer. Jesus is praying to god and jesus says to god I have revealed you to those you gave me out of the world They were yours but you gave them to me and they obeyed your every word.
And so he moves on from there and continues to pray for his disciples and it's very clear in that passage. You should look at it if you want to see more of the context. What Jesus is saying here is God you gave me people to disciple and to invest in and this is important that because our last two episodes have been about how do you find someone to disciple and we talked about a lot of different things and one of the things we talked about was prayer and Jesus prayed all night before he invited the twelve into a discipling relationship with him And so in the same way if you're sitting there and you're wondering God I want to be a disciple maker I think I'm ready We need to pray and we need to trust that God will do His part.
He will bring people to mind. He will point people out as you're interacting with people in your everyday life. Hey talk to this one. Invite this one out to coffee. You know invite this one to study the Word with you. Invite this one to be in a disciple making relationship with you. Because God will entrust He will give us someone to disciple.
So that's the first thing as far as God's role in disciple making. The second thing that's God's role in disciple making is it God moves their heart right? It moves the heart of the person that you're trying to disciple. The scripture for this Proverbs 21 one it says the king's heart is in the hand of the Lord.
He directs it like a water course wherever he pleases. Now let's get practical about this. The truth is is that when we're making disciples when we're pouring into someone when we're doing life on life disciple making what what Justin and I would call Jesus style disciple making there comes a point in every relationship where it clicks.
Right where the person gets it where he or she realizes that it's no longer a program to be managed it's no longer a check to be accomplished but something happens in the person's heart. Where then all of a sudden it becomes part of their identity in Christ right? One of the things that I say all the time is that disciple making is not a program of the church But it's an identity of the Christian and that moved to an identity statement where disciple making becomes part of their identity Only Christ can move their heart in that way right when they begin to see The generations upon generations when they live into that promise that God made with Abraham that your spiritual descendants will outnber the stars those kind of beliefs when you really have faith in that that comes from God and God alone.
Now We have a responsibility to show up. We have a responsibility to present the scripture. We have an opportunity to kind of facilitate God encounters with the person we're discipling but in order for them to fully step into it that's really on God and God will do that. And honestly there isn't a person who I've discipled long term where I didn't see that happen.
God always delivers in that area when it comes to someone moving their heart. in the disciple making process. Typically in my experience and I would love to hear your thoughts on this too Justin but in my experience the people who don't get their heart moved by God don't stick around. Yeah I think that's right.
Now I'm just thinking though right? He moves their heart. He gives them to us to disciple. I guess what I want to communicate here is that A lot of times we can view these things as God's role and they are God's role that's the point of our episode. But within the context of disciple making He normally does that through us right?
So it's normally through conversation. It's normally through you know something that we said that we didn't we weren't even saying it on purpose in terms of it wasn't intentional it was in the The course of conversation or we were talking about something that we got out of the scriptures Just kind of sharing our own life and then boom God uses that to move their heart.
And so it's different than Something that like oh we're trying to move their heart right? Because there's certainly times when when I've tried to do that right? Hey I see an issue I want to move their heart in it. I'm gonna prepare something and like we're gonna talk about it And occasionally that's helpful in moving their heart.
But way more often it is God is using the relationship that I have with them the time and my faithfulness in it. And then he moves them in the way and in the timing that he desires. And I think this is so important the second one here because it's in contrast to us moving their heart right? Because when we hit up hit up against an obstacle in disciple making somebody that doesn't quite get it that we want them to get it.
If we don't understand that God's ultimately the one that moves their heart then it's we carry that around on our shoulders and think man I'm not doing something right here. I didn't prepare this well enough you know whatever it is. But really if there's something we If God's the one that does it then our job in it Is to remain faithful in preparation and in prayer but ultimately realize that the outcome and their heart being moved is something that's outside of our control.
Yeah I think another way to think about this just kind of imagery wise is. is that term vessel? We see that a lot in scripture that we are God's vessel and what we're holding is the person we're discipling but it's still God's vessel right? So God's still determining all the things. We're just kind of stewarding what God is giving us and giving it to the person so that they can then give it away to someone else.
And so I I actually I I would even suggest maybe and this might be a little bit too much of an overstatement but you know I'm prone to those is that you're not a disciple maker unless God has already moved your heart to fully understanding what that means. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And what it means is that God is at work in you right?
And that we are again his vessel it's a great way to say it right? We're his vessel in this process with someone else. All right. Nber three. Nber three I'll start at you. You jp into it. How about that? All right let's do it. All right. So nber three God guides counsels and convicts from within through the Holy Spirit.
And and the reason that I wanted to take this one is because it jps right into what we were just talking about right? Is that is that God works from within us right? He moves within us to give us words and wisdoms and and things that we can't and don't normally say like that's not normally coming out of me Justin what's the scripture for that?
Yeah John 14 26 which right in that passage there's lots about the Holy Spirit but 26 says but the counselor the Holy Spirit whom the father will send in my name will teach you all things and remind you of everything I've said to you. So the Holy Spirit has this job right? He's a counselor. he is reminding us of things that that we have learned in the past from Jesus and from the scriptures.
And helping us right? And then the other scripture we have here is John 16 eight which again Jesus talking he will convict the world of sin and guilt in regard to sin righteousness and judgment. And so the job of conviction. comes from the Holy Spirit as well. So this third one right he the Holy Spirit guides counsels and convicts from within.
And I Tony I like how you said that because I wasn't thinking of it in that way that from the disciple maker's perspective that he is guiding us as we are discipling. Certainly true. But I was thinking of it the opposite way that that as the disciple the disciple has the Holy Spirit in them right? And so I don't need to function as the Holy Spirit in the life of the person I'm discipling.
I don't need to be the the sin police or bring conviction to them or saying Hey you did this don't you feel bad about it? Or you shouldn't have done that or you know all that stuff. Because in the midst of someone's life that I'm discipling. I can probably see multiple things depending on their maturity level when I get to them multiple things that are in their life that aren't aligned with scripture.
And my job is not to point those things out to them in a way of like Hey you need to work on this this and this. My job is to help them connect with the Holy Spirit who will point those things out. And then they will come to me. Hey I'm really feeling like this shouldn't be in my life anymore. Or I was reading this passage and I I just realized that I do this and I've never realized I I shouldn't do that.
And so now I'm in cooperation with the Holy Spirit of what he's already doing in the life of a disciple as opposed to trying to be the Holy Spirit for that disciple. One of the things that I think is really important when we talk about this idea about the Holy Spirit working in the life of the person we're discipling and in our own life is that this is part of the reason why.
Why I end every disciple making session in prayer right? Is that I want to intentionally create some space for God through the power of the Holy spirit to work in this moment. And so. Sometimes the best thing that we can do as a disciple maker is just ask a question and then let it sit. This is one of Justin's superpowers.
Like if you've ever been in a room with him he'll ask a question and it'll hang in the air like a thousand pound weight tons of fun. Well for you but for the rest of us what it does is it gives space for the Lord to speak. Right. And and there have been times where Justin has done that to me and I've been super convicted and there have been other times where I was super emboldened.
Right. And you know both things are true but the space is what gives us permission to do that. Yeah. The space for the spirit to work. Right. Because it's not on us. It's not all on us. We're not the one that needs to provide the bulk or the majority of the guidance or the counsel or the conviction.
That's what God is there to do through the Holy Spirit. All right so we're on to the fourth one. the fourth one is part of God's role is to pro provide growth to provi provide the growth in the life of the disciple. one Corinthians three verses five and six says this what after all is Apollos?
And what is Paul? Only servants through whom you came to believe as the Lord has assigned to each his task? I planted the seed. Apollos watered it but God has been making it grow. So we cannot as disciple makers we are powerless to get someone to grow from point A to point B. Just like the farmer is powerless to to make the seeds grow that he planted in the ground.
Alright he can tend it he can water it etc etc but the the growth has to come from God. And again this is so so important because as you're discipling as you gain more and more experience in discipling there will be lots of times where you will be reflecting it. On your role what you've been doing with them and racking your brain because you're not seeing the growth that you think should be seen.
And you're like what am I doing wrong? What's happening? And it's healthy to ask that question and to look in the mirror as a disciple maker. But we have to look in the mirror as a disciple maker with a view towards what our role is and what God's role is. And so if we are being faithful as a farmer is faithful with his crops if we're being faithful to disciple the way that God has revealed to us to disciple the way he has taught us through Jesus example to disciple then we need to step back and lean into prayer.
As opposed to leaning into anxiety and worry and you know whatever else we're putting on to our own shoulders that you know we can't provide the growth. Only God can provide that growth. true confession. I think that this particular point the fourth point is absolutely the hardest for people who are in vocational ministry full time.
Because so much of what they feel like they're being measured on Is someone else's growth when the reality is is that we're not really called to grow. We're called to be faithful right? Like like what you said is this idea that Hey like we've got to we got to water it. We got to provide the nutrients for it.
You know we got to do all the things. I love the farmer imagery on this one but ultimately it's up to the Lord and to the person right? The Lord wants to partner with the person to be a part of that growth process too. So that you know it. Sometimes I I I have heard people talk about I just can't get this person.
And I'm like well maybe it's not your job to get this person. Maybe maybe the Lord's just not ready for him or her yet. And it's just going to take a little bit more space. Yeah. So those are the four right? So we'll rehash them real fast. God's role is to entrust someone or give someone to us to disciple to move their heart.
In the process right? While we're moving while we're working with them while we're discipling them. It's to guide and counsel and convict that person from within through the Holy Spirit and to provide the growth in their life. Here's what typically happens and here why here's why this episode is so important.
Because if we get to either extreme in discipling if we think it's all God and none of us that's a problem because people won't disciple then. They'll just stay home. If we think it's all us and not God well that's a problem too because we carry around all this anxiety and responsibility that isn't ours and if it goes well it goes to our ego and if it doesn't go well it goes to self pity.
But one verse that really helps me in this is 2 Timothy 2. 21. And it says those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instrents for special purposes or another version says noble purposes made holy useful to the master and prepared to do any good work. So as a disciple maker I want to be useful to the master in his hands.
That as a disciple maker he is using me in the life of this person. There are things that I need to do to be faithful to that. But part of what I need to do is to take it seriously. I need to cleanse myself from the latter which is you know I mean look at the previous verse. It talks about that right?
So the sin the immaturity et cetera et cetera. The closer to Jesus that my life is and that I am the more useful I am. And so he's given us a great responsibility. And so I want to lean into that but I also don't want to lean so far that I'm doing things or taking things on that he never intended for me to take on.
All right Tony as a way to wrap up take away action step final thoughts on this topic. Well the takeaway I think is probably the most important final thought which is this the work of making disciple makers is one that God shares with us. He will occasionally do it on his own but it's intended to be a collaborative work.
Listen to that again. It's intended to be a collaborative work. And the action step simple but not easy. Pray and trust to God to do his part and those who are discipling. Pray and trust to God to those who who you are disciple making. Easy for me to say right? At the end of the day right? Pray and trust God to do his part.
And those who are disciple making there I got it the last time friends as always it's hard to do. And it's hard to say sometimes it's in the show notes. If you want to read it it's in the show notes. you may not know that but we always put the takeaway and the action step in the show notes. So if you ever didn't catch it or you want to go back and write it down later go ahead and hit those show notes.
There's also tons of link links on disciple making resources www. discipleship. com. Friends we're so thankful for you. We're thankful for the way that you work with us on this podcast. Every single time you share it with somebody you're discipling or someone that you're pouring into it means the absolute world to us.
My Justin and I just have a very simple goal when it comes to this particular medi and that is to share and create resources to help you make disciple makers. So friends we thank you and we look forward to connecting with you real soon.